Episode #133

Intelligence & CBT

Many people feel that their intelligence is set and there’s nothing they can do to change it.

What are the repercussions of this belief?

Do you have any control over your level of intelligence?

How can you use CBT tools to encourage & empower yourself?

Join me, Dr Julie Osborn, as I discuss the truth about intelligence.

Click to listen now!

Full Episode Transcript

Hi, it's Dr. Julie, and I'm a doctor of psychology and a licensed clinical social worker specializing in Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. I'm here to help you bring the power of CBT into your own life.

I always like to share messages, emails I receive. This was on my Instagram, where everybody could see, so I thought I would share it.

And this was based on one of my podcasts I did called, Behavior and CBT.

So, the listener said,

“Changing habits has always been a difficult task for me. A couple years ago I started vaping, for instance, and I've been meaning to leave it as a weekend only activity, but it's so hard. Also, for ten years now, I've been familiar with anxiety and obsessive personality traits.

For me, it's always been really helpful to jot down my thoughts, If not on a daily basis, at least on a weekly one. But I always end up making excuses not to set aside the time to do so. For some reason, I always feel like there's something better to do. Looking forward to listening to this episode. Your podcast meant the world to me during the pandemic years.”

That's from Ivan. So thanks Ivan. I appreciate you taking the time and sharing and making us think about how similar we all are, right? So I think a lot of us really struggle with changing our habits. The thought that there's always something better to do which might be true sometimes, right?

But it's still a hot thought because if we want to make decisions what's best on us, based on not how we feel, that kind of can get us into the groove of doing good things for ourselves and practicing our tools. So A lot of things you shared, I think a lot of us struggle with, and taking the time to listen to the podcast, doing the work, following through, can really make a difference.

So again, I appreciate you reaching out. So today, my podcast is on a really interesting article that I actually had a client share with me. I went to go read it, and I said, you know, this could be really intertwined with CBT. It's not exactly all, but I'll explain that as we go along. But there is an article, and you can look this up on your own, called Brainology.

And the article is from 2008, and it's by Carol S. Dweck. It's D W E C K, if you want to look it up. And so to talk a little bit about our brains, and some research that she's done on how people think about their own intelligence can really affect how well they do. So you'll understand more as I continue.

So I want to give this credit to Carol Dweck, and she starts off by saying that it's an exciting time for our brains, and there's more research showing that our brains change constantly with learning and experience, and that it takes place throughout our lives. And so I'm going to connect CBT throughout this podcast to what I'm reading from Carol, and I think that's why CBT is so helpful, right?

So knowing that our brains are constantly changing. Through learning and different experiences, you know, that's why the CBT is so helpful to be identify Identifying what our thoughts are what our core beliefs are what our underlying assumptions are because they do change throughout our lives Based on things we learn and different experiences we have so I tell people that are like, you know couples I'll say, you know, you're never gonna know each other exactly all your lives, knowing exactly, you know, what you're thinking, how you're feeling, because we're all having experiences on a daily basis, interacting with other people, maybe reading a book, maybe watching something that might change our perspective, right?

Our knowledge, our interest, how we see the world, and that, that's why we always have to communicate with each other, because, you know, I'm kind of looking at things differently based on this experience I had, right? So we always have to be mindful that we just don't think one way our whole lives. And being aware of what my thoughts are and why it's causing me to feel positive or negative, I want to be aware of, so I can have more balanced thinking, and again not fall into that trap of just living off of my mood.

So, that's the first thing here, that I really connected with, with my CBT, talking about how our brains are always changing. And because our brains are always changing, she did a lot of research, based on the implications this would have for students based on their motivation with their learning. And in her research, she was able to show that students believe, what they believe about their brains, whether they see their intelligence as something that's fixed or something they can grow and change, that's has really profound effects on their motivation, their learning, and their school achievement.

And I think this can be related to all of us outside of school, even when we graduate. The way that we see ourselves, if we think we're smart enough to learn something, is going to really affect How much we're driven and how we push ourselves. And she was also saying that the different beliefs or mindsets create different psychological worlds for these students.

And the worlds are that one in which students are either afraid of challenges and are devastated by setbacks. And one in which students relish challenges and are resilient in the face of setbacks. So this is again, I can, I'm just generalizing it and using my CBT tools is, you know, I address your core beliefs, right?

She uses the word mindsets that really affect how we look at the world and how we see ourselves. Right? And then when things happen, are we devastated by them? Are we afraid to try new things? Are we afraid to make changes, challenges, which a lot of people are? Or are we excited for change? And then when we have setbacks, we look at it as opportunities to change, to grow, to try things differently.

So, that's why I wanted to share this, because I thought, wow, this really pertains to all of us, even though she's really focused on the teaching and the learning. So, she talks about that so many students don't achieve their potential, even though they're very bright, and they stop working because school becomes challenging.

And we have stereotypes that have such profound effect on how students achieve. And you know, this is where so many people are so focused on their grades, there's so much pressure to have certain GPAs, and that even though there's some really smart kids out there, they just stop because of the stress and the messages they're giving.

So she also learned, which was super interesting, that praise can actually have a negative effect on students mindsets, harming their motivation to learn. So I really can compare this to when you're in therapy, you know, as a therapist, My job is not to be your cheerleader and be like, you can do it, you can go, this is great.

But it's really to help you see within yourself your own strengths, to see within yourself your negative thoughts, all of your hot thoughts and how those are getting in the way of you reaching your accomplishments. Right? And reaching the goals and believing in yourself more. Because cheerleading is nice, but that's really the positive thinking, which I've told you guys doesn't work long term.

It's good for, you know, the last leg in the marathon, right? Where it's like, I can get over this, you know, The finish end, I can go, I can go, I can go, and people are cheering you, and you get that energy, but then once you cross the finish line, it kind of is gone. Right? So positive thinking, if we all, if positive thinking worked, I always tell everybody that we'd all be fine.

Right? Because we all can positively think. But it doesn't last because we don't believe it because it's not based on any facts. Right? So, it's like just, you know, reading a book. Like, oh, I'm kind of motivated, I want to try this, but are you actually taking the steps to go further? Right? So, Cheerleading your kids, cheerleading people in your life, right, by just only praising them, like, you're so good, you're so wonderful, you know, doesn't actually make changes.

And it sets kids up, which she shows with her research, that if they're not constantly getting that, they lose their self confidence. So, it's not coming from within, but it's coming from outside. And if that's not there, then they're kind of lost, and they see themselves negatively. So she talks about mindsets.

So, address, so let me explain that a little bit. So she shared that many students believe that their intelligence is fixed. Right? So, I'm either smarter, I'm not smarter, I'm this smart as I am, I'm not going to go any further. Right? And she calls that a fixed mindset. So students with this mindset worry about how much of the fixed intelligence How smart am I?

You know, I'm not as smart as that person. Right? And it makes challenges threatening. Because they think that their fixed ability might not be up to the task. And it makes mistakes and failures just demoralizing. Because they believe that setbacks reflect badly on their level of fixed intelligence. So instead of like, okay, that's something I need to learn more.

Did I really study hard enough? I need to push myself, maybe go get tutoring. It's like, nope, that's it, I'm done. I'm not going to be any smarter than this. So that's a fixed mindset. And we all have fixed mindsets. Well, not all of us, I should say. I'm sorry. Many of us, many people I meet in therapy, have fixed mindsets about how their life's going to be, what people are going to think, what their future's going to look like.

what their abilities are, what they're capable of, very fixed, based on past experiences, and that's why they struggle so much to really change. The other mindset she talks about is a growth mindset. So people with the growth mindset, she states, believe that intelligence is a potential that can be realized through learning, and because of this, confronting challenges Profiting from mistakes and persevering in the face of setbacks becomes ways of students believing they can be smarter.

Right, so, changing words up can really make a difference sometimes and I share with a lot of my clients that you know, if I'm asking them to maybe expose themselves to an anxiety provoking situation and they're like right, so instead of being like, oh my god, this is going to be hard, you know, I use the word opportunity.

This is an opportunity opportunity. to get better, to get over my anxiety, to get over my fear, an opportunity to show myself that I really am capable. Right? So, students, they found out with a growth mindset, you know, are like, Oh, okay, this happened. I had a setback. What do I need to do better? Because my brain can continue to grow and I can continue to learn.

I can continue to get smarter. Right, so we're talking about growth mindsets and fixed mindsets. And these are the two that she found in her research with the students. But again, I'm hoping as you guys are listening to me, you can kind of say, Oh yeah, how do I fit into this? Do I have more of a fixed mindset about my life or certain things in my life?

Or do I have a growth mindset and that I'm more open and seeing setbacks I have or is just opportunities. to get even better or to learn more about what maybe I don't know already. Or be more open to change or seeing somebody else's point of view. So the first thing that they found out with her research with students with different mindsets is that they cared about different things in school.

And the students with the growth mindset were much more interested in learning than just looking smart in school, right? So, I know, I work with students, I was a student, you know, oh what grade did you get? What are your grades? What's your GPA? I want to look smart. I wouldn't want anybody to know I didn't do well on a test.

So, people with fixed mindsets are more focused on how they look and kind of more of the black and white thinking, right? The cognitive distortion of black and white, all or nothing. Right, if you have a growth mindset, you're more interested in, again, learning, what can I learn, I find this more interesting, I'm going to focus on that, not so much about what's my grade.

Or how smart am I? And what are my bragging rights kind of, right? And you know, I learned, I don't remember having this in school, but I've had students recently tell me that, you know, the teachers will share the grades in class. Or like when you get your paper back, everyone's like, what did you get, what did you get?

If you didn't get a good grade, you know, you might feel really embarrassed, humiliated, like there's all this pressure. Instead of like, yeah, you know what, this is not my strongest subject, or I didn't put all my effort in. You know, what am I going to say to you? And I'm sure some people just kind of lie like, oh I got a B or you know an A or whatever if they really didn't because there's all this pressure now instead of being focused on actually learning.

So if you have a fixed mindset most likely you're going to care more about how smart you appear, how successful you appear, and a lot of times they found in the research with the students that the fixed mindset students actually rejected learning opportunities because they just thought it was fixed.

And so they found that students with the two mindsets had radically different beliefs about effort. So you know, we talk about beliefs all the time, you guys, right? Your core beliefs. I'm smart, I'm not smart. I'm successful, I'm not successful. I'm good enough, I'm a failure. Right? I have to be perfect or I'm going to fail.

So, your different beliefs about effort. Can really make a difference, right? Believing that, like, if I put some effort into it, it'll make a difference versus a fixed mindset. It's like, no matter what I do, it's not going to make a difference. And those with the growth mindset had a really straightforward idea of effort and a correct way of looking at it, as the research showed, that the idea that the harder you work, the more your ability will grow.

And even saying that geniuses have had to work hard for their accomplishments. So she was saying, in contrast, the students with the fixed mindset believed that if you worked hard, you bet that you didn't have ability, and that things would just come naturally if you did. Right? So those are the should statements.

I should just know. I should just know how to do math. I should just know how to write a good paper. Right? So that this means that every time something is hard for them and requires effort, it's both a threat and a bind. Right, that if they work hard, it means that they aren't good at it. And if they don't work hard,

they won't, they won't do well. So clearly, since just about every worthwhile pursuit involves effort over a long period of time, right, that this is potentially crippling belief That not only in school, but again, only in life, and that's why I wanted to talk about this, right? That all of this stuff Carol's saying in this paper is just so true, and falls into the cognitive behavioral therapy, because the way these students are thinking about themselves, and learning and accomplishments, and how your brain works, you know, completely affects their behavior in how they push themselves.

And if they're willing to try. Alright, so again, the fixed mindset thinks that if I have to try, that's kind of threatening, right? Because now I'm going to really have to maybe show myself, or people might see that I'm not as smart as I kind of put myself out there. And it's sad to think that working hard just means, you know, there's something bad about, not bad, but something not good about them.

Because it's just not coming naturally. And the assumption, I think, is that we If we're not as smart as the next person, we think it just comes natural to them, and we don't see all the hard work the person puts into it, right? Or someone that's successful, right? Or maybe more successful than you, you know, sometimes there's luck that falls into people's laps, but let me tell you, there's a lot of work probably behind until the luck came, right?

And they had to really work hard and, and. You know, do whatever it took to get to where they wanted to be. So, we don't want to make these assumptions about others that it just comes easy for them. Right? Or they just got lucky. because they seem to be doing better than us. That is not true, right? Just like we look on Instagram, right?

Facebook people. Oh, everyone has a great life except me. Look at all these pictures. And I'm like, what? Of course, people put out happy pictures and it looks like everything's great, right? But you don't know what's really going on in their lives. And when you see healthy, happy relationships, it doesn't just happen.

People are working hard to have happy, healthy relationships. Right? I mean, look at the divorce rate. Right? I know at least in the United States, you know, first marriage is 60%, second marriage is 50%, right? People are struggling. Relationships are not working. When you see a good relationship, they're working at it.

Okay? They just didn't get lucky, and life is just rolling along. People work hard to accomplish and reach the goals, but they have to believe that they can. and that they can grow and they're willing to change. So it's really important in all aspects, all aspects of our lives. So she also shares that The students with the growth mindsets reported that after a setback in school, they would simply study more or differently the next time.

But those with the fixed mindsets were more likely to say that they would feel dumb, study less the next time, and seriously consider cheating. So they didn't see it as an opportunity, they saw it as something very devastating, and I think probably thought that they were stuck with whatever level of intelligence they have.

So you can see how it just really can hold people back. You know, if you really think you're dumb, or you're not smart enough, or you're not good enough, you know, how are you going to bounce back and feel successful in the future? Right? When you have a growth mindset, you can really create a more balanced way of thinking about yourself, create positive actions to take, and to grow from any, you know, Maybe deficits you feel like you have or not, you know, as strong in certain subjects or ability to maybe even network or I have a lot of people that say, I don't know how to hold conversations or keep them going.

These are skills that can be learned, not just to kind of cut yourself off at that point. Also, she shared that the belief that intelligence can be developed, which is true, really opened up the students to a love of learning. And they believed in the power of effort and constructive, determined reactions to setbacks.

So I'm quoting Carol here of what she's saying in her article. That to believe in the power of effort you put in. Right? Determining their reactions to setbacks. So, I experience this all the time with my clients that do the work. That I have people come in that are really working it. They're coming to therapy.

They're doing the homework. They're, you know, practicing the CBT tools out in their lives. And they're like, Oh my God, that worked. You know what? I did a half thought. You know what? I took a minute to identify my core beliefs. I noticed I got triggered. I did something different. And they're pleasantly surprised, like, this really works.

You know, in my therapy I have weekly inventory that's in the Mind Over Mood book that addresses or scores I should say, your depression, your anxiety. And at first clients are like, oh, I have to do this every week, I, yep, just do it once a week. I'm going to ask you for your numbers when you come in.

And people start seeing their scores go down, which means their symptoms are getting less, their negative symptoms. And it really is a concrete activity that people are like, wow, you know what, look at, you know, the difference. I am feeling better. I didn't really notice that because I'm still focused on one issue, but I'm starting to see that the work I'm doing is paying off.

I am. You know, capable of change, of learning something new, of actually practicing it. It's really exciting. I love it. I love when people come in and they can't, you know, they're excited. I want to tell you my numbers. They've gone so, you know, down so much more, Dr. Julie. I want to tell you about what I did.

I want to tell you how I was successful this week. And, you know, that just builds up their confidence and their ability to have more of that practice. You know, belief that I can grow, having that growth mindset, and I can really make changes. It's just really a beautiful thing and I just love it. So one other thing she mentioned in her article is that she said back in the 90s they took a poll among parents, this is really interesting, and found that 85 percent endorsed the notion that it was necessary to praise your children's abilities to give them confidence and help them achieve.

So what they have found out that just praise actually can actually hurt your kids if that's all you're doing with your children. So they wanted to explore this more and say, you know, why wasn't this working? You know, why weren't children doing better in school when they had all this support at home and were being praised?

So, believe it or not, they found out that the children praised for their intelligence did not want to learn, and that children praised for their effort wanted the tasks that they could learn from. So, if you're just like, you're wonderful, you're great, you're wonderful, right? Kids were just like, okay, I guess I'm good enough, you know, and it didn't push them to want to do better.

This is going all the way back. They did this with fifth graders, right? When they offered the kids that were being praised with a challenge challenging task that they could learn from, the majority of them opted out for an easier one where they could avoid making mistakes, right? Because now it's like I got to live up to what my parents think.

I got to live up to what everybody's saying about me. So it's like I'm going to take the easier route. But going back to the children that were praised for their effort, they wanted the task they could learn from. So that was really interesting. And they said that the children, praised for their intelligence, lost their confidence as soon as the problems got more difficult, right?

And this goes back again to the positive thinking. Oh, I can do it, I can do it. It's like, meh. I really don't believe in myself, right? And if I don't believe in myself, I'm not going to take on the more difficult problems. Because they really didn't think they were smart because there was no evidence for them It was just everyone telling them right for us to think we're smart I've talked about this in my podcast on self esteem Self esteem isn't just because oh, I feel good about myself and people tell me that self esteem comes from feeling competent Right, I can learn I do well if my grades are good That's also telling me like oh, I learned this I spent more time.

I am competent at getting better That's where self esteem comes from Not just someone being told that they're wonderful. And also, they said that the students really lost their enjoyment, you know, in school. And because of that, their performance, you know, just went down the tube. So, you know, if you're just relying on the outside world and compliments and what others think of you, it's not going to last in the long run.

When we are dealing with life, sometimes it's all on us and sometimes we might be by ourselves and have to make a decision or walk through a moment and we don't have someone there to talk to right away. We need to have that inner strength, that inner belief that we can handle things so we can have that resiliency to get through life.

Because we do have moments, you might be in a business meeting and you're being attacked for something and you can just get overwhelmed and just kind of have a meltdown or not, you know, be able to speak what's correct. When you can do that within, it's like, okay, this is a really difficult moment, I need to take a breath, I need to pause before I respond to this person that's criticizing me.

That has to come from within and we can't always rely on other people building ourselves up. So that's why all of this is so important. So, what happened to the kids that were praised for their effort? They maintained confidence, they were more motivated, and their performance was better. And it actually improved over time.

And by the end of the study that Carol was talking about, she said that their IQ tests even went up for the kids that were praised for their effort. Because they were performing so much better than just the intelligence based children on the IQ tests.

So I'm going to give you just a couple of examples that she shares in the article on how to praise She's talking about students, but even others in our lives, right? So instead of just saying you're wonderful and that's all great, you know, she says here, you know, you could say, you know You're really stuck to that until you got it.

That's wonderful It was a hard project, but you did it one step at a time. It turned out great I love that you chose the tough problems to solve. You're really going to stretch yourself and learn new things So see you can see how You These praises are focused on the effort, not just like, you're smart, you'll figure it out.

You always get straight A's, right? I've met kids too that just cruised through high school, you know, elementary, middle school, high school, just always did well. Then they got into a great university and they just got overwhelmed because now everybody they were with was smart. And they never really learned how to study because they didn't have to.

And now it was really challenging and they were struggling. Some of them left and went to a school that was maybe a little, quote, easier. You know, like, I was like, wow, that is so interesting. How that happened, right? Because now they're in an environment where everybody excels. They weren't the best student in the class anymore, like maybe they were in high school because it came easy to them.

Now it was more challenging and they didn't have the skills on how to deal with that, you know, from within. So you want to focus on whenever we're trying to, you know, help somebody or give them encouragement, talk about Their skills talk about the evidence and experiences that they've already gone through in life that will allow them to deal with the next challenge in their life and that they already have the strength and they can build on that and by learning new CBT tools or even help even more.

So the last part of her paper she talks about how that we need to correct which I would say is balancing your thoughts but she talks about correcting the harmful idea. That people simply have gifts that transport them to be successful and to teach the students that no matter how smart or talented someone is, she mentions people like Einstein, Mozart, that no one succeeds without enormous efforts and dedication.

And it's through effort that people build their abilities and realize their potential. So that's what I was saying, that through effort people build their self confidence, right, change their core beliefs to more positive core beliefs, and really start to see that they are way more capable than they ever give themselves credit for.

Right, and that's how we become more content in life and get past our depression and our anxiety, and learn how to manage those when it does come up. So, taking on challenges, making mistakes, you know, putting your best foot forward regarding effort, that's what allowed these kids to get smarter, and that allows us to get smarter and to change.

And what is smarter for us is understanding that our thoughts create our moods, which affects our physical reactions and our behaviors, and that our environment plays a big role. So, just having this. basic understanding of CBT, right? That when I have a negative mood, I need to ask myself, what am I thinking that's causing this?

What are my core beliefs? Do I believe that I'm a failure? Do I believe that I'm unlovable, that I'm not good enough, that I'm bound to be abandoned, right? That I'm not adequate. And are these beliefs that I learned over my lifetime? Because you're not born with them. And if it is, although it's painful to look at that, how can I change that?

And I'm willing to take on the challenge and I'm willing to, you know, take three steps forward and two steps back and put the effort forth because I deserve it and I'm lovable and I'm good enough and I deserve to be happy and I don't deserve to just struggle. Not deserve to struggle. I'm not stuck just struggling in my life and it doesn't take long.

I'm telling you guys, I've seen it over and over and over again. When people are doing the work, they get better quick. And that's what I like to see, and that's what I like for myself. When I'm struggling, it's like, I want to have my tools. Like, I don't want to feel this horrible for days on end, right? I'm going to have negative moods.

I'm going to have all these moods. I'm human like all you guys, and all of our moods have a purpose. Right? And sometimes it's okay. Sometimes I just need to be sad because something happened, but I got to work through it and not stay there. Right? Sometimes it's normal to feel anxious about things. I need to have tools so I can work through and to believe that I, I definitely believe I have a growth mindset.

Right? I never believe I'm done growing. We're never done growing. How boring would life be if we were done? Well, this is as far as we're going to get, so we'll see what happens. Right? To be fixed in a mindset is only going to hurt you. and, and stop you from really creating the life that you deserve and being as happy as you choose to be.

All of us are going to have bad things that happen to us. It's not that life's just going to be great because we have this growth mindset, but we're going to be able to address the challenges, right, and we're going to be able to use our tools on a daily basis to really get to the place that we want to be.

So, I hope this got you thinking. If you're in a fixed mindset, you can also change that. We're not stuck, right? We're never stuck. If we have a growth mindset, are we doing everything we can, or do we want to continue to grow? So I love this article. I'm so happy my client shared it with me. I found it so interesting.

Again, the article, I want to give all credit to Carol Dweck, called Brainology, again, you can look it up on Google, that's how I found it. And you can read the whole article, I just shared expert, excerpts from it. And again, I appreciate you being here with me. Please share this with anyone that you think may benefit.

The more that hear my podcast, the more opportunities people have to grow. So again, I hope it was helpful.

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