Episode #78 

What About The Introverts?

What is the difference between an extrovert and an introvert?

Is there a difference between being shy and being an introvert?

If you’re an introvert, how can you survive in our non-stop culture?

And if you’re an extrovert, how can you support the introverts in your life?

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Full Episode Transcript

Hi, my name is Dr. Julie Osborn. I'm a Doctor of Psychology and a licensed clinical social worker specializing in Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. I'm here to help you bring the power of CBT into your own life. So in this podcast I'm going to answer your questions and share with you some practical ways to apply CBT principles so you can achieve a greater level of happiness and satisfaction in your life and your relationships.

In this episode, I'm going to talk about being an introvert, but first let me get started with an email from one of my listeners that took the time to reach out and I really appreciate that. I'm going to keep her name anonymous, but it says:

“Hello Julie, I hope you're well. I have so many questions for you, but this is the most important right now. How does a person start and keep a fall record? I work in the restaurant industry and I work almost all day.

I go in at six and then have off for 3 hours and go back until ten on my break. I usually catch up on rest or cleaning Doc. If you have any suggestions, I'd love to hear from you. I know we learned so much about myself by doing a thought Journal. Thanks for being here.”

So I'm just going to read my response and let you guys hear it because this might be a good answer for you as well:

“I'm figuring out how to do the thought record in a fine time, so I told her my suggestion for keeping the thought record is to use your phone and dictate into it since you work so much. One of my podcasts is called The ABCs Of CBT, and it walks you through the entire thought record, so that would probably be one that would be helpful as well. Also, if you get the workbook Mind Over Mood which you can find through my podcast. Once you click on an episode and scroll down, you'll see the link to the book and they will have copies of the thought record as well. Let me know if you have any other questions. Happy New Year and be well.”

She responded by saying:

“Thank you so much for responding. I'm so grateful for you and your knowledge. I've listened to The ABC's Of CBT which I guess led to my question about how to keep a thought record at work.

I listen while I'm driving and I feel myself having so many questions it's hard for me to absorb the information. Sometimes what I do absorb has been incredibly helpful. I bought the CBT Workbook For Mental Health” - which is different than mine over mood, but I'm sure that she's getting some benefit from it - “and I've been pushing myself to stick with it, which is quite hard. I must admit I need practice keeping a thought record to actually understand my core beliefs and thought tendencies. I know what I need to do. I just need to execute it. Again, thank you for giving out life-altering information for free. You're changing the world. I hope you know that. Stay blessed.”

So thank you so much. You know who you are. And let me just talk about that a little bit more. The thought record is one of the main tools in the Mind Over Mood workbook I use with my clients. So that is the tool where you're going to identify a situation where you had a negative mood, identify your moods, your thoughts, challenge them, come up with new thoughts, right?

So I always suggest that during the day when things come up, as I suggested to her, is to make a note in your phone or write it down, whatever you prefer to do. Because by the time you sit down and do this all record, a lot of times you might forget what the situation was right or what you were feeling. So as long as you write down situation like argument with boss and then what you're feeling is plenty and then you can go back to it when you sit down and do this all record. Also, especially if time is an issue, don't feel like you have to fill out the whole thing at once. You could just do the first two columns, which is the situation and identifying your moods and rating them.

And then you can go back and fill out the thoughts. I really say over and over again to my clients, don't rush through this because the more time, especially in column three, which is putting down your automatic thoughts and identifying your hot thoughts, the ones that are not 100% true, you really want to take your time, so don't feel again. If you're in a rush, just fill out what you can. You can always come back. Remember, if you're using the mind of a mood book, you really want to ask yourself the questions in column three to help you get to more of the underlying thoughts.

And the more you do the thought record, it will become automatic. Like I tell you guys, I do thought records every day of my life. I got too many thoughts going on, right? And I need to identify them as well. So I'm not just reacting off of my moods.

So the podcast, as I stated in the email I was sent, is called the ABC, the CBT. And then of course, if you're using the mind over mootbook, it's going to walk you through step by step on how to use it. But if you have any other questions, again, you can always reach out to me and I'll put all my information at the end of this podcast and I'm happy to answer because I want to be of help and help you guys be able to use the tools to really make a difference. So let's start talking about being an introvert. So let me say the information I'm going to share with you today is mostly coming from an article through Psychology Today that you can look up yourself.

It's called Revenge of the Introvert and the author of the article is Dr. Laurie Helgo, and this was published actually in September of 2010. So if you're looking up on the Internet under PsychologyToday.com, you can put that information. It will come up for you. So it's just an interesting story.

And why I'm using her article is because I've shared this with a handful of clients. And for some, believe it or not, it's been like life changing. And I think that's because a lot of people that are introvert sometimes actually feel bad about it. They think, quote, should be more social, I should talk more. I should be able to feel more comfortable and enjoy social gatherings because everyone else enjoys it.

The reality is that's not true and that introverts are about as many as there are extroverts in the world. But we just make assumptions, right. That there are more extroverts because more people are out social and doing things. So part of her article, the Beginning, States that there's as many introverts as extroverts. But again, you'd never know by looking around, right?

So introverts would rather be entertained by what's going on in their heads than in seeking happiness. And I'll talk more about that. It's not that they don't want to be happy. Their big challenge is not to feel like outsiders in their own culture. So I've had such good reaction and feedback from my clients that I've shared this.

I thought, you know what? This would be a great podcast to do, because if there's just as many introverts and extroverts, it would be good for all of us to understand. I hope if you're an introvert, this will make some sense to you, if you're kind of questioning things, but also as extroverts to understand introverts more and to give them that space to be comfortable and to not push them that they should be more social things like that. So I'm going to read again part of the article to you and then obviously give you some of my own feedback. So I think this could be really helpful.

So talking a little bit more about the introvert introverts we can describe it is that they have more of a preference for the inner world of their own mind rather than the outer world of sociability. And they can get depleted by having too much external stimulation. Where extroverts thrive on external stimulation, introverts thrive more on reflection and solitude. So although extroverts prefer the schmoozing and social life because it actually boosts their mood, right? Having activities and going out and they actually get bored by too much solitude.

And I know there are lots of couples where one person is an extrovert and one person is more of an introvert. I'd say that's true with my marriage. Not that I'm talking about it. I'm definitely the extrovert. My husband is more of the introvert, but it all works well.

It doesn't cause problems. So it's not like you have to be with the same type of person. And although there's no precise dividing line, as I said earlier, there's plenty of introverts around in our society, introverts can get overwhelmed again by too much social engagement and activity. And that explains why an introvert will leave a party, maybe after just a little bit of time where the extrovert actually gained steam as the night goes on. I've shared this with one of my clients that as she read this, she said, yeah, that makes sense.

That after maybe an hour or two of talking, chatting back and forth, she's like, I'm good to go. And now that she understands this more, she was just sharing with me recently that when that happened, she was able to give herself some positive self talk. That it's like, yeah, I've had enough in a good way, and I'm ready to go, or she's ready to go to sleep. And she was okay with that. Instead of thinking, what's wrong?

Why aren't I connecting more? Or I should be connecting more? Lots of should. Remember, the rude word of should is scold, right? So she's scolding herself.

You're telling yourself negative things. I think a lot of introverts say all those should statements about how they should be and by comparing themselves to extroverts who seem really comfortable and enjoy being busy and doing and doing and doing so. One thing regarding some background and some scientific knowledge regarding this whole difference between introverted and extroverts is that scientists know that while introverts have no special advantage in how smart they are, they do seem to process more information than others in any given situation and then to digest everything they've taken in. They do best in quiet environments or interacting one on one. So their brains are less dependent on that external stimuli and rewards to feel good.

They don't need that as much. Also, because of this, introverts are not driven to seek big hits of positive emotional arousal. They rather find meaning than bliss, making them relatively immune to the search for happiness that is such a huge part of our contemporary American culture. So what I want to say about this is I was saying earlier that it's not that when it says that they're immune to the search for happiness, that they're not out there trying to find external things to feel happy, which is a really positive thing. Right.

That sometimes extroverts like, I got to be around people, I can't be alone. I need to go. I need to do. I don't want to be by myself. We're looking for happiness by outside external situations we're in or people or things.

Right. Where an introvert can find the happiness within because they're kind of refueling by being alone, where extroverts are refueling by being with others. Again, none of this is black and white. Remember that right. Some people can say I feel like I'm a little bit of an introvert and an extrovert, which is also true.

So I'm just talking a little bit more specifically about a true introvert, just to get more understanding and just take this and maybe get some insight into yourself. We all want to be happy, but we may go after it differently. And you've got to think about our emphasis in our culture on happiness can actually threaten the mental health of an introvert because there's so much pressure. Right. And in America, I can speak for life has become way more competitive.

We're much more aggressive. Everything is so fast, right. With the Internet and looking up stuff and go, go. There's a lot of pressure to be your best or perfect sometimes always be part of the team. You need to make quick decisions, you need to make good decisions.

You need to think ten steps ahead of everybody. And this can really leave an introvert stressed and depleted. There's so many challenges out there in the world. And sometimes, as the article States, you don't want to feel like a misfit in your own culture. But sometimes it might feel like that because if you're comparing yourself to those other people that are extroverts or driven in a different way by going reaching for the next step, you may feel bad about yourself.

And I'm talking about this because that's not the goal. I want you to feel good about yourself and have acceptance of where you are. So let me talk a little bit about the difference between what it means to be an introvert and what it is to be shy, because on the surface they look the same. Right. And an introvert and a shy person tend to limit their social interactions and interests that they have, but they're doing it for different reasons.

So the shy person desperately usually wants to connect but find socializing really difficult. Someone who is an introvert wants to have time alone, and that's what they seek out, because that's what makes them feel most comfortable and can rejuvenate themselves. An introvert and a shy person might be standing against the wall at a party, but the introvert prefers to be there while the shy individual feels he or she has no choice. So just understanding the difference. Right.

That an introvert might look like they're a shy person, but it doesn't mean that they are. And again, there's tons of research backing up everything that is in the article that I'm sharing with you. And there are more details on that if you decide to read the article. But I just want to share that so you can understand the difference. You can often spot introverts just by how they converse in their style, so they're the ones that are more doing the listening.

The extroverts like me, are more likely to pepper people with questions. And introverts like to think before they respond, and a lot of them think before they respond in advance, going over like, how do I want to answer this question? And they also are looking for facts before they express their own opinions. Extroverts are more comfortable thinking as they speak. So an introverts perform more of a slow pace interaction that gives them some room for thought, and that they can really think about their answer because it's important to them and that's what makes them most comfortable.

Introverts also are collectors of thoughts, as they say, and solitude is where the collection is curated and rearranged to make sense of the present and the future. So introverts enjoy and also can tolerate projects that require long stretches of solitary activity. Extroverts often have to discipline themselves to do that kind of work, and they prefer to have more social breaks and maybe take a connect, say hello to somebody. So again, it's all good. It's just doing things a little differently.

Even though extroverts might spend more time doing social activities than an introvert, research shows that the two groups actually spend a significant time with family members, romantic partners, or coworkers the same. And they both report getting a mood boost from the company of others. So introverts enjoy that, but they just don't need it as much. Another thing regarding some of the research backing this up is that researchers have found that introverts who act more as an extrovert show slower reaction times on other cognitive tests than those allowed to act as being an introvert. Right.

Because they want to have more time. And the cognitive fatigue testifies to the fact that acting counter to who you are can be very depleting. What's interesting, too, is different cultures have different ways of communicating. Right. And what they prefer what they don't.

So, for example, America, that I was saying earlier is pretty noisy culture where Finland values silence, individualism, which is really dominant in the United States and Germany, promotes the direct, fast paced style of communication. More of an extrovert. Right. And then the research shows that more of other societies, just such as those in East Asia, value Privacy and restraint, which is more of an introvert. So when you think about the fact that the research shows that there are 50 50 with introverts and extroverts, and if every other person is an introvert.

Right, then why does the culture tone, why doesn't it reflect that? Why does our culture reflect all this extrovert behavior? I think a lot of it has to do with the assumption of what's good and how to be social. Right? I mean, even me as a therapist, sometimes I help clients to teach social skills and how to communicate.

And if you're that shy person, how to keep a conversation going. So it's kind of an eight that we're like always teaching and wanting to be better in that way instead of just saying it's okay how you are. Also, the perception of competence tends to be based on our verbal behavior, right. So an introvert who is silent in a group might be really engaged and taking in what is said and thinking about it and waiting for a turn to speak. But they might be seen as a poor communicator here in the United States.

So there's lots of things to think about and be mindful, especially if there are people in your world if you're more of an extrovert to see, oh, maybe they are really shy or maybe they really are listening. I just need to give them a little more space. And so throwing in my CBT here, right. That's your thought process, right? You're thinking they're not listening, they're not engaged, they're not interested because they're not responding quick enough.

Or maybe they're just really being good listeners and they actually really are engaged. So what can we do? We can just kind of maybe ask, say, hey, what are your thoughts about this, right. Or asking if they're interested in keeping the conversation going. But don't assume the negative or that they're not a good communicator.

To the extent that introverts feel the need to explain or apologize or feel guilty about what works best for them, it makes them feel alienated, not just from side but from themselves. So I'm not saying it's your job to make the introvert feel better if you're an extrovert, but it's just to be more mindful of that, because the opposite, the solitude quite literally allows introverts to hear themselves and think. So they need that space. And if you're an introvert, you need to embrace that and give yourself permission. But I need some space to kind of recharge myself and rejuvenate myself.

So I'm going back to work, or maybe I do have a party to go to or some celebration or hanging out with friends that I really want to be engaged and not feel exhausted. So I need to give myself that time to feel good and rejuvenate. And that's important to do that's. A good self care if you don't have that acceptance and have this extensive internal dialogue that's negative, especially in response to negative experiences. This can increase anxiety and depression, which actually are more common among introverts than extroverts.

Introverts are more self critical than others, but also more realistic in their self assessments so that they can see what's going on with themselves. But again, they'd be more self critical. So I believe that they can make it worse than maybe it is. And I think it's all based on how they're thinking about themselves, which is not true. This one client I'm thinking about, we're like, oh, we need to work on why do I have a hard time connecting or assuming that they didn't keep relationships going?

And once we realized this is more of a behavior because she's an introvert, it took away like we didn't have to go do this deep therapy trying to figure out what's wrong because nothing was wrong. It was just understanding who she was and not comparing herself to the rest of the world. So here's some more research I thought was super happy and talking about that whole drive for happiness, as I was talking earlier. So let's first say, like in the United States, I can tell you that people rank happiness as their most important goal. And that view has a special impact on introverts because happiness is not always their top priority.

They don't need all this external rewards to keep their brains in high gear. And the pursuit of happiness may represent another personality culture clash for them. I was saying about the culture differences. So let me read to you from this article about a study in which subjects were presented with the tasks such as taking a test, thinking, rationally, giving a speech, and introverts and not choose to invoke happy feelings. They prefer to maintain a neutral emotional state.

Happiness, because it's in a rousing emotion, can be distracting for introverts during tasks where, by contrast, the extroverts reported that they liked the feeling of the happiness and went towards that type of thinking when they were taking tests to help them walk through that. So that was really interesting because as you're thinking, come on, what's wrong? Be happy. What's the matter, right? And that they're just wanting to stay calm and be focused.

In general, let me tell you, whether you're an introvert or an extrovert, there's research that for all people, the pressure to be happy actually reduces happiness, which might sound weird, but when you think about it, it makes a lot of sense because there's this pressure to be happy. What's wrong? What's wrong? What's wrong? Right?

That's why we say appeal all the time. Why aren't you happy? Why aren't you happy? Why don't you smile? Why didn't you laugh at this?

Didn't you think that was funny? Aren't you enjoying your life? You're so lucky. Look at all you can be blessed for, right? So there's this pressure to be happy, and happiness is fleeting.

We're not happy. 24/7 I think life would kind of be boring, to be honest. We have lots of different emotions, and sometimes we're sad, sometimes we're happy, sometimes we're frustrated, sometimes we're excited, sometimes we're fearful. Sometimes we're anxious, like all your feelings are normal. And I always want to remind you that the goal is to feel better by changing the way you think.

So we are really focused on how you feel. But this pressure to always be happy, which I think most of you can probably relate to, I can relate to that for sure, is the pressure, right? And so we have to think, oh, I got to go put a good face on. I got to smile. I can't just be myself.

And that takes away our ability to be really authentic with each other. So keep that in mind. If that's some type of pressure, that not just society is putting on you, but are you putting on you? And for you to be like, I don't need to be happy all the time. That's okay.

And I need to be honest about it with myself and maybe the people in my life. So the cultural pressures that can make you feel guilty for not wanting to even be as happy as the culture wants you to be. Right. An introvert may think it's kind of a double whammy for introverts because feeling less happy and then feeling guilty and adequate for not feeling that way. So I was thinking, what was an example here for me?

So I'm someone that I love to give gifts. I find it super fun. I buy gifts throughout the year. I have a little area in my house where I have gifts that I can just grab if I want to give somebody something else to send cards to people. My kids kind of laugh at me about that, but I just love doing it.

It's not about getting a call or saying thank you. It's just something I do that makes me feel really happy. So it makes me feel happy to give in that way. Right. But I'm mindful about not putting the pressure on other people to be as excited.

I've given a gift to people, and they're like, oh, thank you. And I'm wanting them to jump up and down like I do because I also like getting gifts. Right. But I get excited. I'm like, I just love the experience.

I just think it's a fun thing to do. So I have to be mindful that if I give someone a gift and they're not jumping up and down like I do, that it doesn't mean that they don't like it. Right or they don't appreciate it. That's just a different way of them expressing themselves. So that's just a really good example for myself about the pressure that people put on and what we expect people to or how we expect people to respond in certain situations if it doesn't meet up with our expectations and we think something is wrong.

But that's not necessarily true. And that's where good communication comes in. It's just hopefully you're close enough to this person that you can just say, I know I jump up and down and you haven't, but I hope you're really enjoying the gift. And for them to be like, oh, yeah, no, I do love it. Thank you.

And for me to be okay with that, which I am and believe that they still are enjoying it, it's just different personalities and there's nothing wrong with that. So there's a woman who wrote a book called Self Promotion for Introverts, and her name is Nancy Anne Kowitz. And just to share her story, which is in the article, she was working on Wall Street as a marketing manager with top financial organizations. She said the culture included back to back meetings lasting several hours. The common approach was just shout out, say it again, say it louder, use verbal sharp elbows to get a point across.

She says in the company gave everyone in the Department a personality test. She said, well, look at the results. Help to explain the stress she was feeling. Said, I tend to think before I share my ideas. Check that I get tired of attending meeting after meeting.

Check that I like to dive deeply into topics, check that hardest was feeling judged and judging herself for how she was wired. Others would nudge her. She said, Just say what you think. So being reflective was not appreciated or encouraged. So now she no longer attends cereal meetings.

She works for herself as a business communication coach. She says, I know everything that's coming. No surprises. She frequently gives speeches and she crafts her message in advance, and it's very efficient. Use it for energy.

She gets up, presents her material to a larger people, and then goes home to take a nap. So she wrote this book again. It's called Self Promotion of Introverts, where she shares what she learned as an introvert in the business world. And she says, since disability is often crucial to getting ahead, my goal in writing the book was to help introverts get the competitive intelligence on the web, reading, writing, and listening attentively those activities that extroverts have less patience for. So here's someone that was able to turn it around and make it work for her and has done very well.

So she's someone you can look up if you're interested. So conversations between introverts and extroverts can lead to a lot of misunderstandings because the extrovert says carrying on the conversation and there's so much going on, the introvert might have a hard time following what's going on in the conversation while they're trying to sort out their own thoughts. And that's why a lot of times they might remain quiet and appear to just not be listening. But that's not really true. And sometimes they might be struggling with continuing with the flow of input and start to shut out the extrovert and just be nodding or smiling or even trying to stop the exchange because it's just too much.

I think we've all had moments where we've talked to someone who just goes on and on and on, and we're trying to get out of that conversation, right? So that's important to remember. And while the introvert is trying to evaluate any questions that you might be throwing at them, they're thinking in their head about maybe the answer they gave. Maybe that's not the answer they wanted to give to the person really want to have the answer. Do they really want to know how I'm doing if that's what they're asking?

And the cognitive load becomes increasingly difficult to manage as the internal talk competes with the external conversation. If someone's talking and talking to you, and if you're an introvert, you're trying to process all of this in your head. So while you're trying to keep the conversation going as an introvert, you might miss some social cues and then you might appear like you're socially inept which you're not. And then that creates anxiety, right? Because you feel you have so little time to share a complete thought.

And that's why you tend maybe to pull away and you want to have some time to get regenerated with all the thoughts that you're having. So I'm hoping as we're talking through this, it makes a lot of sense. And if it's you or somebody in your life you can give a little more forethought about, oh yeah, you know what? I need to be a little more kinder, maybe not so critical if someone's not responding right away. Is there someone I work with that tends to be more quiet in meetings?

And then they come up with these fabulous ideas and introverts. Let me tell you, I hate people telling them that they can be more of an extrovert and how wonderful it is. Many introverts are quite happy with just the way they are and that it's more your issue than theirs if you're not comfortable with it. So as always, our personalities, our environments affect how we communicate, how we handle the world, how we do our self care, how we get regenerated. And you want to do just some honest reflection and say, okay, is it that I'm an introvert?

Or maybe am I really shy and I do get overly anxious? And that's another situation I can address and work on. But if it's just that, you know what, I am socially engaged and I do like people and I do like doing things. It's just I have my limit. I like to think about things more than just reacting to them or just throwing out an answer.

And it's all okay. And I'm okay with who I am and that's good. And that can help address core belief issues that might be negative that you've struggled with in the past. It can help you start being more mindful of your thoughts and your actions and maybe communicating these to people you're close to to give them more insight. If they don't understand, you can always refer them to this article I've talked about today to have them read it so they can understand it's not just for the introverts, but it's for the extroverts to understand the introverts and for all of us to have a better understanding of each other.

That also helps us change our expectations within the relationship and not get so frustrated. Right. And always being able to express what our thinking is. Right. So again, I know I mentioned earlier in the podcast, but if you're going to say, hey, did you hear what I said?

Because you're not responding, I just want to make sure that I was clear. They might be like, oh yeah, I'm just kind of thinking about it like tell them this is what I'm thinking. Am I on track with you? Because I'm not sure if there's something you want to talk about again, something you're interested and just have a nice open conversation and when you know that they need more time to respond, if you're an extrovert, you won't take it so personal. So that's it for today.

I appreciate being able to use the article again. It's in the Psychology Today website and it's from September 2010 and it's written by Dr. Laurie Helgo which I really appreciate. Dr. Helgo allowing to use your article and being able to share with my viewers so that I hope it can be really helpful and I hope this has been helpful.

And think about if there's other people that you think maybe are struggling with this or you want them to understand you better, you know what pass on the podcast shared with them. I appreciate your time and you guys listening. I hope it was helpful and you've learned something new today.

As always, you can reach me at my email at mycbtpodcast@gmail.com; I will always keep your name confidential unless I check with you first to share it on air and if you're okay with that.

Also, if you want to order the Mind Over Mood book, just remember you can click on it on any of my podcasts.

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Thanks for joining me. Stay safe.

And remember:

Make decisions based on and what's best for you, not how you feel.