Episode #99
Spirituality & CBT
ft. Rabbi Rick Steinberg, MFT
Spirituality and/or religion can form an integral part of our mental and emotional health.
How can CBT work alongside spirituality to improve your mental health?
Join me, Dr Julie Osborn, and my special guest, Rabbi Rick Steinberg, as we discuss this fascinating topic and share some valuable insights with you.
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Full Episode Transcript
Julie
Hi, it's Dr. Julie from My CBT Podcast. I'm a licensed clinical social worker and I'm my doctorate in psychology, and I'm here to bring the power of CBT into your life.
So, as always, I'll have sharing with you guys your reviews and your emails you send me and keep them coming because I really appreciate hearing back from you.
So this one says,
“Thank you, Dr. Osborn. I listened to a couple of your newer episodes and enjoyed them so much. Scroll to the older episodes. I'm so grateful to see your series on cancer. I was diagnosed July 2022 with stage three colon cancer. It's been such a hard time in my life. I appreciate your wisdom on this complicated topic because you know exactly the emotions that come with cancer diagnosis. Wishing you health and happiness in 2023.”
So thanks again for that. And again, I answer all my emails and questions you guys send me, so keep them coming. So today I am super excited to be interviewing my rabbi, Rick Steinberg, who's also a friend and as well as a licensed marriage family therapist. And we talked about doing a podcast on CBT, mental health and spirituality. So that's what we're going to talk about today. And he has so much information to share with us. I know you guys are going to really find it helpful. So welcome.
Rick
Thank you. Great to be here. I'm so glad you're doing well and the podcast is thriving.
Julie
Thank you. Thank you. So can you first introduce yourself to our listeners?
Rick
Sure. I'm Rick Steinberg. I am a reform rabbi here in Irvine, California for the last 22 years. I've been a rabbi 28 years, and during that period, I went back to school to get my Masters in Marriage Family Therapy and became licensed about ten years ago and have a very small private practice that I do on my day off. No members of the temple or anything like that, but I like keeping my foot in the game. And I find the intersection between mental health and spirituality really compelling, that I apply both to my practice and also to my full time work here at the synagogue.
Julie
Okay, that's great. Yeah. I always talk to my clients about, like, mind, body, soul, and I always ask all my clients when I first meet them, spirituality is a part of their lives.
Rick
Right. It's so important. When we were trained, whether it was just ten years ago or you I don't know how many years ago, I'm not going to say we're really taught, don't bring religion or spirituality into your practice if this is a science and spirituality is something different. But the truth of the matter is, Julie, we live in America. That's a highly religious and spiritual country, and to not use that toolbox to help us heal and become whole seems to me really not a good use of all the attributes that we have. So a therapist doesn't have to be and ought not to be advocating any religious position or spiritual position, but can be curious. Tell me about your faith. Tell me about what works for you, what's confession like, tell me about the High Holy Days, what's an iftar? Like? Those are all spiritual in and of themselves that can be applied to a person's ability to get better. And they're the experts on their own spirituality. All of the therapist has to do is be curious.
Julie
Right. And I think you know some research, right?
Rick
About a little bit.
Julie
Yeah. What have they said about regarding spirituality and mental health?
Rick
Well, I mean, I make this joke, it's synagogue almost every Friday night, but it's been proven over and over again. Those who come either weekly or biweekly to religious services tend to live ten years longer than other people.
Julie
Wow.
Rick
Yeah. I mean, it's a significant number. And the reason, they say, is a community is built in which we know we need for healing. But being in your own space at synagogue, church, or a temple of any nature is really powerful because you're by yourself praying to God or whatever spirit you're praying to, and you're surrounded with other like minded people.
Julie
Right.
Rick
So it's community and individual at the same time. That's a powerful combination for healing.
Julie
Yes. And what do you say regarding I talked to some people like, oh, I didn't have good experiences growing up, and their spirituality might be even more connected to nature. Right. So it's about connecting to something. Would you agree with that?
Rick
100%. I'll just do it from the Jewish perspective.
Julie
Okay.
Rick
People will come to me and they say, I went to High Holidays one time, and I didn't go back for ten years because it was such a bad experience. I said, well, you came to the longest service where we're fasting all day, come on a Friday night, where it's an hour long and there's beautiful music and there's a great spirit. And whether it's any religious organization or a place you feel connected, got to do it more than once. I mean, it's CBT in and of itself. First time you try out this technique or that technique, it's going to feel weird, uncomfortable, not even really makes sense. But if you come five or six times, if you try a practice five or six times and it starts to work, it really starts to work.
Julie
Yeah, that's very true. And I ask a lot of clients feel like, oh, they'll come. Oh, I'm Jewish. I'm Christian. And I'll say, well, what does that mean?
Rick
Right.
Julie
Yeah. People kind of throw this title out and they say, well, how are you using it in your life?
Rick
Yes.
Julie
Most times they get silence and they have to really think about it. And I've noticed with mental health issues that when we're struggling, it's when we tend to pull away. Right. Or like, why is God letting this happen? Why god let my mom die. They think God's kind of what I say personally is God's not up there saying, you're going to get sick and you're going to die, and there's so much more that goes on in our lives, but when life is great, oh, God's great and DA DA. So they're not using their spirituality, their beliefs, when they need it the most.
Rick
It's really well said. And I'm going to take just a nuanced piece, please.
Julie
Yes.
Rick
Oftentimes I say, today's Judaism isn't your grandfather's ultimobile. Right. In other words, not necessarily how it was packaged. Maybe the values are the same and the rituals are similar, but they're packaged in a different way. You have to try it. If this is part of who you are, people will say, well, Rabbi, I'm not very religious, but I'm very culturally Jewish. Like, well, tell me more about what that means, just like you ask. And then we find a piece that connects to them, but it's packaged differently, so it means more to them.
Julie
Yes.
Rick
Right. And I'll just use a Jewish example. Being in a synagogue 50 years ago and seeing men separated from women, that's not very appealing necessarily to people. You come today and people are with their families, their arms around each other, and even if you come by yourself, you're going to have somebody's arm around you, because we're connected.
Julie
Very true for that. Yes.
Rick
Given that it was 50 years ago. It just is.
Julie
Yes. So what do you share with congregants, or when you see your therapist regarding spirituality and bring that regarding their mental health?
Rick
Well, it depends what the issue is, but let's say morning, somebody has suffered a loss. I'll say, well, tell me about if I'm in the therapist role, I'll say, tell me about the rituals surrounding death and dying for your religion. So they'll be the teacher, and I'll say, Is that meaningful to you? Why don't you do that more? You'd like going to services, why don't you volunteer to be an usher? Right. Like, whatever it might be. I want to see a sense of connection in Judaism. I have some more expertise in that area. And for us, the ancient rabbis were so psychologically sound, they had these time periods for us to consider. Somebody dies. We have what's called the seven day period known as Shiva, where not a moment goes by where you're not thinking about the person who died. It is ever present in your mind. Then we have the 30 day period called Shaloshim, in which we begin to articulate the question, how am I going to live my life without this person in it?
Julie
Yeah.
Rick
Do you know how hard it is to articulate that question? That is a really tough thing to do. And then in Judaism, we have eleven months to answer that question. And at the eleven month mark, we say, morning is over and life begins again. So that's the Jewish perspective, which I can talk a lot about, but I'll ask the Christian or the Muslim or the atheist even. Tell me about an experience you had where you had lost. Maybe it's breaking up with a boyfriend or girlfriend.
Julie
Right.
Rick
Maybe it's losing a job. How did you deal with it? If they had strength in dealing with it, I'm going to play on that strength. If they had weakness in that, we're going to look to improve that weakness to make it stronger.
Julie
Yeah. Okay. This is my experience. You guys have not wrote this or read this anywhere, but over the years, people that have no spiritual connection, whether it's nature or through their church or temple, whatever, I find that they tend to be angry because they feel like everything's on their shoulders, they don't have anything to reach out to. Right. Like, I know there's something bigger out there. I can depend on that. I can use that spirituality in my life to give me some peace and comfort. So it's like everything's on my shoulders, I have to figure it out.
Rick
That's a really interesting statement. That hasn't been my experience, except to say that it's not about necessarily God or even a higher power. It's about seeing that there's something that is bigger than yourself.
Julie
Yes.
Rick
Right. I mean, that can be very scary. That can be very scary, or that can also be very compelling. Like you're embraced by a bigger hole.
Julie
Yes.
Rick
So does the person with no faith, can they achieve that? I think so, yes. And it means that not everything is on your shoulders. There are other people there to bear the burden. It's why support groups are so effective.
Julie
Exactly.
Rick
Right. You're not alone. You and I were talking right before the podcast about our families and how similar the circumstances are between our families and every other family we know that has kids in their 20s.
Julie
Yes.
Rick
Right.
Julie
It's really so it is true for people to find that connection. So I say, whatever it is, if you didn't have a great experience growing up in your religious affiliation and you want to find something, I'd say go shop around. Don't go for this or that. It's so different. I can say my experience. When I was growing up, our temple, as a kid, I was bored. I like, quote, dropped out early. I went back to get tutor, dad, my bob mitzvah and all that. But I got really involved in my youth group, which is called the name Breath. It was my life, and I was president. We traveled, and all my best friends are from there today. And it was the community, and it was fun. It wasn't like, oh, I'm going to temple. My dad was so happy. It was more that community. My friends, we all have things in common, and it was just great, great memories. And when I looked for a temple for my kids and we came here we went to a couple of other ones, but it was such a fun experience, right? It wasn't just like, oh, I got to go to temple, you or I got to go to church. I've met kids that said, oh yeah, my parents dropped me off at church but never went in with me, come pick me up. And I'm like, what? How does that work? Right? So it's so important, whatever you're looking for and whether even if it's some kind of group or I think where people go hiking and you see them every week and you're out in nature and you're connecting with them to keep going and to shop around, know that you're not going to find something right away. And that if it's important to you to keep striving for that because that will really help with your mental health. And I think bringing the CBT into it, it's what we're thinking and based on our past experience, I'd say that's not going to be good, I don't need that, I'm fine. And you don't go explore that part of your life.
Rick
I think you are spot on there. First of all, I didn't know about the Bennet brit. That was my path as well, the exact same path. And you can edit this part out if you want, but you just said your family is the perfect example of that. So I'll tell a little secret. Julie and her family, when their kids were young, were here a lot and then I see them every so often. It services, but not every week. But it's irrelevant because you and your family feel a deep connection to your faith, to this particular place, because the thought of it brings you comfort and joy and happiness and the memories of it and what possibly in the future brings you hope as well. So you don't even need to come all the time. It's your thought connection to it that really matters to you and speaks to your soul in a way that you pay money every year to have that connection. You wouldn't have it anyway, but I'm just saying belong to something bigger than yourself is a thought that really resonates with you and your family. Tell me if I'm wrong.
Julie
Oh, yeah, definitely. And I know even though I don't show up as often, it's always here.
Rick
That's called Jewish guilt, my friends.
Julie
It's always here for me, right? It's always here for me and that's what's important because it's like, where do I want to go? What do I need? When I've had struggles, all you guys know I had cancer about a year and a half ago. You reached out to me and some of the congregates and just knowing like it's there if I need it, if I reach out, right, that it doesn't matter how often you see me or what, that we have that connection.
Rick
Absolutely. Every year, Julie and her family host the service that we do at the beach, which is a very special service that we do. And that's also a sense of connection that's kind of like the Osborne volunteer service of the year. And so there is the thought and then there's the action that you all take because that's important to you, that's of value to you to say, well, okay, we don't come a ton, but we want to participate and volunteer our time for a place that's really meaningful to us.
Julie
Right. And having that connection.
Rick
Yeah, of course.
Julie
So I know that when for me personally and I hope for those listening that you probably relate to this or maybe start thinking about this is even though we have support in our lives and we share, there's a lot of moments where just to ourselves and we're having a lot of thoughts going and we're now ready to share how we're feeling. Or we started to think of so much information I don't even want to go through all of it. And that's when I get more in touch, I'd say, with my spiritual place and kind of let's looking for that support and how do I want to handle this, what's the best thing for me, helping me stay present? Also I would say kind of taking it one day at a time and thinking about what are my beliefs and how am I going to use them to walk through maybe this challenge that I'm having. So it's another resource also.
Rick
Absolutely. I couldn't agree with you more. And I would say that making a clergy person part of your care team is really an important piece here. Not to be your therapist, but to give perspective, to give insight, to give suggestions. Rituals in faith are often, if they're used well, a means to an end, not an end in and of themselves. And they can bring great meaning to a person's life. So, for example, again, Judaism is the example that I know, but on Friday night, we light candles when the Sabbath comes in. And so if you've had a dark week, which many of us experience, and you really take literally 30 seconds to light two candles and say a blessing, to remind you that there is light in the world, there is. Light in a person's life and you make that part of your weekly ritual. It can be a great reminder of hope and of saying, I can do this. I experience a lot of darkness, but through my work in CBT or whatever modality a person is using, there is light for me to have. And that's a simple example of the intersection between spirituality and mental health.
Rick
And a good clergy person, particularly in conjunction with your therapist, will help you find those rituals that speak to your life.
Julie
Yeah, and I think sometimes people don't even know that it's missing from their lives.
Rick
Oh, for sure.
Julie
Yeah. When I'll ask them to kind of stop and think like I'm not sure. One thing that out of all the service I've been to, certain things just stick to and I tell this to a lot of people that didn't have good experiences, or they feel like some of the religions, they're too strict and all of that. And I don't believe all these stories. And they say the one thing I always remembered you shared, one of your sermons, was that we don't know if the stories are true, but there's a lot of truth in the story. And I remember sitting and going, that's me, bam. Right? I'm not sitting here. I've never read the Bible. I don't read parts of the Torah. I don't know. I don't study in that way. But what are the truths in the stories and the meaning behind them? Like, that's what I really resonate with. Right. So it's not that you have to follow all these rules, you guys. You don't have to study. Do you have to go read the Bible and all that? It's just what can I take from this that's going to serve me completely?
Rick
I mean, take the story of the Exodus right here. Somebody's enslaved, right? Well, how many of us are enslaved by our behaviors, by our struggles, by our depression, by our anxiety? I mean that we're handcuffed by it.
Julie
Yes.
Rick
Then all of a sudden, the sea opens up. Did the sea actually open up? I don't know if it opened up or not, but the metaphor of it is more powerful than you can think. Cross the sea towards what we call freedom or the promised land, and then the sea closes in on all the oppressors. Right?
Julie
Yes.
Rick
But we're not there yet. We still have to climb a mountain to get Revelation. Right? Yes. I could metaphor this all day for you throughout the Bible, because I think the Bible is one of the great psychological thrillers of history, because you want a more dysfunctional family. Look at Abraham and Sarah and their child Isaac and his wife Rebecca, and then their children, Jacob and Esau, so forth and so on. I mean, more dysfunction you cannot find. And yet there's wisdom in each of these stories that we can draw from. And I teach a class once a year at a clinic for PhD students and MFTS, and I draw the family tree of the Book of Genesis. I'm like, what's wrong with this picture? And from addiction to OCD to depression to abandonment to attachment issues, all sorts of different things, and we can just learn so much from it.
Julie
So that's a great different perspective than getting caught up in, like, oh, I had to do this, or the rules or guilt and all different religions was, like, put on me as my parents or those fear. Right.
Rick
Not your father's Oldsmobile!
Julie
That's right. And that's the other thing that comes up, is a lot of religions, people walk through it just fear based. Right. And I'm like, that is not the message. Right. That is not the message about fearing what your belief is. It's about having that support to help you really walk through the fear, because how's that going to benefit you, to fear what your belief is. Right.
Rick
I completely agree with you. And I'll just give you a little Hebrew lesson here for all your listeners. The word fear is kind of a mistranslation in Hebrew, which is the original language of the Bible. It really should be translated as awe. Awe. And when you are in awe of something, then you're more likely to kind of obey or follow or whatever it is. But over the years, from the Greek to the Latin, it got translated as fear.
Julie
Wow.
Rick
And so that has also changed how we see God's spirituality. That you're 100% right. It's translated for the last many hundred years as a fear, but it really should be awe. And when we stand and take a look, say, wow, that's awesome, I can be a part of that, that could really change the way we think about it.
Julie
Yeah. I appreciate you sharing that. Yeah. Because the fear, I think, turns people off completely. And then fear with therapy, there's a lot of fear in coming and addressing your issues, right?
Rick
For sure. I think that whether it's a rabbi or therapist, it's the same reaction. People walk into your office, they start crying because they don't know why they're crying. And our job as clergy and a therapist is to create a really safe space, and being vulnerable is maybe the hardest thing for any human being to do. And I can just tell you, knowing Julie for 22 years, and me and every other therapist or clergy I know, it's really safe to cry in those spaces. It's really safe. I like to call it, in the religious word, a sanctuary where you can be truly you, flaws and all.
Julie
Yes. You have a lot of people, when they start crying, they apologize, oh, this is where you get to cry. I hear them, the box of tissues. Yes, exactly. And that is true. They come in, they start crying. They're like, I don't even know. But maybe it's just being safe, feeling safe and being like, oh, I can kind of let it out. And there's no judgment here.
Rick
Zero judgment. The least judgmental people you ever meet, therapists and hopefully the clergy you meet. But sometimes that's hit or miss. But life is hard. Life is really hard. And I don't know, I think it's particularly hard right now. I don't know. I look at my kids and I think my childhood was easier than their childhood in some way, mostly because of the phone and social media and things of that nature. But life is just challenging, and you need safe spaces to be you.
Julie
To be you. Yes. And dealing with those challenges, having the tools to deal with them. Right. So when I have like just yesterday, I had a new client who was kind of nervous and wasn't sure what to expect. And then when I tell them that this is what CBT is and what can offer, and you're going to have tools on how to deal with getting past the depression, anxiety, being overwhelmed, how to create that community, and problem solving at the end, he's smiling. This is great because he said this other therapist he went to was just kind of support, oh, how are you feeling about that? And you walk away and you don't feel like you have any tools on how to follow or what to do. So with the CBT, I'm hoping this conversation for all of you, or have you just start thinking, what are my thoughts and what are my beliefs? Do I have spirituality in my life? Did I have it? Did I walk away from it? Why did I do I even want that? You don't have to, but if you do, we're just trying to share. How can I bring that back in my world?
Rick
Absolutely. Well, spirituality can be poetry. Spirituality. Back to an early question you asked me that I don't think I answered about nature. Yeah. For many people not me, but for many people, hiking is a spiritual activity of great importance. And I know lots of couples who hike, and one walks in front of the other, and they really do it kind of silently together, which I find a very powerful thing. I once was asked to give kind of I don't know what it is, not a lecture, but kind of a pep talk before a group climbed Mount Whitney. And it was really powerful. And I used the metaphor of Moses and the Mount Sinai. It was really kind of a fun experiment. And we sang songs and all sorts of things. And it wasn't a Jewish thing. I was just asked to come as a spiritual leader, and people of all religions were there. And it really stuck with me that anything can be spiritual. It doesn't have to be religious.
Julie
No.
Rick
Your weekly ritualized phone call to your grandmother on Sunday morning, that can be a spiritual experience because she's going to give you a piece of wisdom. You didn't know what's coming.
Julie
Right.
Rick
So thoughts and behaviors and making them healthy, both of those are going to be really important pieces. And if you can add spirituality on top of that, you have just opened up a whole bucket of opportunities.
Julie
Yes, exactly.
Rick
Oftentimes, if I have somebody who's struggling with depression, I send them to the soup kitchen to volunteer for several reasons. One, to get out and do something. Two, to do something beyond oneself. And there's lots of rewards in helping that lift a person's spirit and say, oh, I am a worthy person. I am a person who has value, so much value that I'm helping somebody else who's struggling. Yes. And boy, that's the essence of spirituality.
Julie
Yes. Give it back on some level.
Rick
And then, of course, because I'm a mean therapist, sometimes they say, I'm too tired, I don't want to do it. I said do it anyway.
Julie
Exactly right. I go to my mantra, right? I say, make decisions based on what's best for you, not how you feel beautiful. Because we don't do anything if we ask them if we feel like it. But what's best for me? Yeah. That I get up and I go, give back. And it can change your perspective and yeah, you can feel that. And that's where it's like, bigger than myself. It's not just all about me. There's all these people around here's, this person grateful that I'm just giving them some soup and they're still going to go beyond the street.
Rick
That's correct. Exactly correct.
Julie
And they might remember me. Yeah. And one thing I want to add before we finish up, too, is regarding like I'm introducing you guys to my rabbi today, but I don't know if I've talked before on my podcast, but my husband's Catholic, had a great experience being raised Catholic and we made a big decision before we got married how we're going to raise our kids. Because I was like, Come on, let's get married up, kids. And he's like, no. And we went to a support group with interfaith couples. We read a great book called Mixed Blessings. We went and spoke to Rabbi because a lot of people wait and say, well, we'll just kind of go along and do whatever, and a lot of people don't do anything. Right. And then the kids don't have any foundation. And I found with our temple, it's very open, a lot of interfaith couples here. So my point is, don't think, like, everything has to have to find someone exact religion. I have to find everything has to be in place, like whoever you meet. But it's important to talk about what are your spiritual beliefs. Because when you get into a relationship or if you want to have children, I'm telling it comes up way more than you think, because now I'm am I going to live my life. What do I want to give my family if it's been a part of my life? And one thing my husband said, which is true, he said, we're going to focus more on our similarities and our differences. And he's taught me. He just knows more based on his experience, just about spirituality. And he definitely brought that. That's one of my gifts, I felt, from my marriage. He has brought spirituality way back into my life that I didn't really have beforehand. So it's been very interesting, so beautiful.
Rick
And to add to that, not only with your relationships to other people, but to institutions too, you go to one synagogue or one church and one mosque, and you don't feel the vibe there, go to others, if that's what. You're interested in doing, don't give up because you didn't find it in one particular place. We live in a very religious area in Orange County, and I know this is national, so in America as well. Keep looking until you find your place, because there is a community for you of like minded people or people who are going to challenge you in positive, healthy, constructive ways, but not from a guilt, fear point of view, but from a supportive, loving, blessing kind of view. At our synagogue, everybody wears a name tag. And if you're not wearing a name tag, we know you're a guest, so we go up to you. And the story I like to tell is there was a family who came all summer long, they were checking out the temple, and then I said hello to them every week, and then they joined. And the next week I went up, I said hello, and the guy says to me, rabbi, you don't have to say hi to me anymore.
Rick
We already joined the temple. I said, no, we say hi every week, not just to get you to join the temple. And those are the places you should look for, where you feel connected and valued and a valuable member of the place. Saddleback Church, one of the great churches, I think, of America. They leave all their front parking spaces to people who are first timers so that they get to close the park closest to the building because they want to send a message to those who are visiting.
Julie
Yeah, that's wonderful.
Rick
Yeah.
Julie
And I think when you can find a place you connect with, you don't feel like less than or the person, whether it's a priest or rabbi, whoever's, like, oh, they're up there. I can't approach them to become a friend. Right. And to have that connection and knowing that someone you can go to or like I said, whatever you guys find in your life. But I really want you to kind of do an inventory. It's virtuality. Whatever that looks like to you is it a part of my life? How can I build on it? And if you have a therapist talk about, how is this something I want and how would I even pursue that? What would I look for? What's important to me, and maybe what's getting in the way with my hot thoughts or thoughts that aren't 100% true. Our core beliefs of what we've learned growing up, and if it wasn't a good experience, I can make that different. And what would that look like for me?
Rick
Well, we're in charge of our own lives.
Julie
Yes.
Rick
Right. So we want to find things that speak to who we are and our core beliefs. And if we're not sure what our core beliefs are, there are a lot of really healthy reservoirs from which to draw to help us inform ourselves about what it is we want and desire. May I make a book recommendation to you. Please forget about spirituality. My favorite book, maybe of the last 25 years is something called The Spirituality of Imperfection.
Julie
I love it, and it talks about.
Rick
How life is complicated, and it uses stories from all faiths and a lot from AA as well, which is a spiritual resource of amazing perspectives. And essentially basically, it says you take the challenges of your life and you find the meaning in them, and that's what makes them spiritual.
Julie
Well, that'll end the show right there.
Rick
That might drop everybody.
Julie
That's great. That is great.
Rick
It's really powerful. The spirituality of imperfection.
Julie
Do you know the author?
Rick
I don't. Off the top of my head.
Julie
Okay.
Rick
It's kind of an edited book.
Julie
Okay. We'll find it, and it'll be on my site, you guys, so you can find it and order it. I'm going to check it out. That sounds excellent.
Rick
And one last thing I just want to say, just so those of you who follow Dr. Osborne here, she literally is the foremost expert in CBT in Orange County, at least, I know, and probably nationally, but she is the go to person for CBT and for therapy here in Orange County.
Julie
Oh, thank you.
Rick
That means it's really true.
Julie
That means a lot to me, and I've appreciated your friendship and everything you've offered to our family over the years. Thank you. Yeah, I was even here before Rabbi Ray.
Rick
That's true.
Julie
We've been around a long time, and it's great to have that connection. I just didn't have that as a kid growing up. So, again, I appreciate your time.
Rick
Pleasure.
Julie
If anybody wants to reach out to you, how is a way for them to come up? Absolutely. There.
Rick
The best way is through the web page, which is www.shmtemple.org, like Sam, Harrymarytemple.org, and you can find all of our programs and my contact information there as well.
Julie
Okay. And again, he's a therapist as well. You guys, if you're looking for somebody and you can always reach out to me. If you're not sure how to reach out to him regarding the therapy, I'll connect you there. That's it for today. I hope it was helpful. If you have any questions, you can always reach out to me at MyCBTPodcast@gmail.com. You can also find me on Instagram at My CBT Podcast. My website is MyCognitiveBehavioralTherapy.com, and of course, on my Facebook is Dr. Julie Osborn. So thanks for joining me again. Remember to make decisions based on what's best, you know how you feel. Stay safe and we'll talk soon.