Episode #55 

Help For Adult Children Of Addicts

Were you the child of a parent who was an alcoholic or substance abuser?

Do you still find social situations and intimate connections difficult?

In this unique podcast, Dr Julie looks at some of the behaviors that can unconsciously persist into adulthood when a child is raised with a parent who was an addict, including the roles these children subconsciously assume, often for many years after leaving the home.

She will gently help you to identify these telltale behaviors and patterns in yourself and show you how to use the power of Cognitive Behavioral Therapy to identify and correct the wrong thinking that's holding you back from the happy, peaceful life you deserve.

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Full Episode Transcript

Hi, my name is Dr. Julie Osborn. I'm a Doctor of Psychology and a licensed clinical social worker specializing in Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. I'm here to help you bring the power of CBT into your own life.

In this podcast, I'm going to answer some questions and share with you practical ways to apply CBT principles so you can achieve a greater level of happiness and satisfaction in your life in relationships.

So first, wanted to share a really nice email I received from a listener.

And again, I always appreciate you guys taking the time. I’m so humbled how many people take the time to write and thank me for the podcast.

So this one says,

“Hello, Dr. Osborn. I hope you're doing well.

I recently discovered My CBT Podcast has become part of my morning routine. I replay episodes and even talk back to them like, yup, that's me. I'm keeping a half-thoughts journal that I carry with me.

I also purchased the Mind Over Mood book. I've been learning a lot, so thank you for that. I've been dealing with depression from a young age and with time I've developed anxiety and panic attacks. I've been to a psychologist, psychiatrist and most recently tried a therapist. She was one who talked to me about CBT and worked on it for six months. Unfortunately, I had to stop for financial reasons and cancel my sessions. I promised myself I would go back once possible, but in the meantime I would stay proactive.

I know I am not at 100 percent, but I'm really trying and always keeping in mind that every day is a new day to try again. I appreciate your time so much and thanks for all you do.”

So thank you very much for that email. As I say, unless you give me permission, I don't want to mention person's name just for confidentiality, but I appreciate you guys letting me share your thoughts and letting people know that a lot of people are being reached, a lot of people being helped by listening to the podcasts.

And then I do read all your emails and I do reply and I love to hear from anyone out there that's listening. So today I wanted to talk about children of substance abusers. So there's a term they call adult children of alcoholics addicts. And it really started getting more knowledge about how children are affected in homes, probably, I believe, like in the 80s. And I'll talk a little bit more about some people that have written some really excellent books, if you want to read more about it.

But, you know, countless millions of adults in our country have a parent with the drinking or drug problem. Looking back at a little history of the nineteen hundreds can clarify this phenomenon. So Prohibition was repealed in 1933 and this tended to validate or at least give some justification for the amount of alcohol by the World War to generation. And alcohol was associated with good times and a good life for what is sometimes called, quote, the drinking generation who lived through World War Two and the survivors of war mostly gone now or very last stages of their life.

Their children, the baby boomers are now middle age and entering older age, which I am a baby boomer, tended to use not only alcohol but drugs as well. And again, they often associated the use of these substances with good times. So the substance abuse legacy was often passed to their own children who are now in their 30s and 40s. And unfortunately, the estimates of the numbers involved are vague, but a certain portion of those who use alcohol or drugs become addicted to the substances.

Fortunately, within the past decade or two, there's been a trend away from the use of alcohol and drugs as a source of pleasure, especially in view of the devastating impact the overuse of these substances can have on the user's physical and emotional health, as well as the well-being of their families. It's been estimated that one out of three adults, one out of three adults, grew up in a dysfunctional household where a major focus was on the overuse of their substances by at least one of the parents.

So that is a lot. So if you yourself are not a child of alcoholic or drug addict, you definitely know somebody. And I would just share my background is I really did not have any of that in my family. We knew people. I didn't know what it was growing up when some you know, I remember my dad helping out some friends who had some issues with alcohol, but I didn't really understand what was going on. And then when I was married the first time and then my current husband, who I've talked about in my podcast, where I talk about a blessing in disguise regarding substance abuse, where I started meeting people that were adult children of alcoholics.

And I was really taken back, by the way they coped and just the way they dealt with things. And I was kind of confused. And I actually had a phenomenal mentor when I was getting my bachelors in social work. And she was able to explain things to me. And I didn't really understand. I didn't know what a culture of alcoholics and the patterns that they have and how they cope with life. And so I was really confused in my relationship.

So that was kind of where I got started. And then I actually did my master's thesis on adult children of alcoholics and what kind of therapies were beneficial. I even ran a support group at the school. I was there when I was getting my bachelors for adults, for alcoholics. So I started really. Hearing stories, it just blew my mind and what kids had to cope with and deal with and really heartbreaking, really difficult and I think putting a name to it and owning it and understanding and saying, yeah, really did affect me.

Even if my parents got sober, if I lived through that time, it's not something that's gone just because the parent isn't drinking or using drugs anymore, because, you know, at the time when they're using the parent isn't emotionally available and a parent is usually the one who can read and validate your moods and needs of you as a child. You know, your parent encourages your independence as you grow up. And in healthier households, there's a sense of security, consistency and predictability as the children grow up thinking and feeling of trust and mastery in the world with the support of a healthy parent.

I remember a lot of adult child of alcoholics that I worked with, you know, a lot of times would say they'd never invite friends over because they just didn't know what it was going to be like when they went home or if their parent was going to be passed out on the couch. So, you know, just don't have that stability that we all need to develop in a healthy way. And what happens, you know, in the dysfunctional household where alcohol and drugs dominate the domestic climate?

Well, a lot of things happen. And when an adult has formed a dependance on alcohol or drugs, the normal give and take of everyday life can become disrupted. And rather than working through daily problems and frustrations and modifying behavior to adapt, you know, the problems that you're dealing with, there's always the drink or drug. At the end of the day, have a drink and the problem goes away, or at least in one's mind, right.

It's a Band-Aid. The parents emotionally unavailable. Thus the needs of the growing child are often ignored and the drunk or chemically influenced parent can hardly perceive the feelings of the child and usually places his or her own needs over those of the child because the alcohol or drug comes first, even if the parent is addicted to a substance but not using it at the time. There's still a tendency because of how substance abusers approach the world and problems in general, that the child's needs will still be neglected.

So the healthy option for the chemically dependent parent is to work and coming to terms with the impact of substance abuse and his or her own life and the life of the family. And people have grown up in households with alcohol or drug overuse, and part of the parent have some common characteristics. And although people from the general population, you display many of these behaviors as well, people from dysfunctional families tend to have a higher incidence of these traits. So we're going to talk about today and take a look at some of the more common patterns found in people who grew up with an alcohol or drug abuse impairment.

So, again, this is kind of was my how I got interested in it is just being in relationships with people who were adult children of alcoholics and trying to figure out how to have the relationship, which was difficult and kind of figuring all that out because that was not my experience. So the first thing, which is the foundation of any relationship is trust. Right. And it becomes difficult in substance abuse. In families, promises are repeatedly forgotten and the parents moods are unpredictable and celebrations or other family events are canceled a lot of times.

As a result, the child learns not to count on others and often feels that others don't care enough to follow through on their commitments. So it becomes difficult for one growing up under these circumstances to form intimate and trusting relationships in adulthood. Right. Which makes sense because I didn't I didn't have that. And it's safer for me not to trust others. Personal boundaries are poorly defined. There's a proclivity to become enmeshed with the partner's needs and emotions. A solid sense of self and personal identity is missing because everything in your life was so dependent on how your parent was, which was unpredictable.

And because you're not getting your needs met, your feelings get repressed because of the constant pain of disappointment, a child growing up in a dysfunctional family learns to hide feelings. After all, was the point in hurting so much of the time, right? When feelings are expressed in the family, they're frequently accompanied by outbursts of anger and are denied the next day as if they didn't even happen. Thus, the child learns expressing feelings will have no positive outcome and then not remember the next day anyways.

The child lacks good role models for expressing feelings appropriately and growing up in a substance abuse family. Lisa difficulty in forming intimate and spontaneous attachments later in life. This is totally understandable when you consider that a climate of fear and unpredictability that had prevailed in the household. So emotional overcontrol is a recurrent outcome right after overcontrol my emotions. Sometimes I don't even know what they are and if I do express them, my parents aren't open to hearing them. And and usually the person that's, you know, a substance abuser, alcoholic, doesn't want to take responsibility or isn't willing to take responsibility for what they're doing.

So they're going to just be defensive and lash out at the child. So the child just wants to be quiet and not really deal with things in their life, because when you do bring them up, you know, things aren't talked about. So a lot of dysfunctional families sometimes create a myth about how wonderful the family is, which is not true. And then the child is kind of questions their reality, like, am I crazy? I know this is going on, but everybody's talking like everything's fine.

You know, they tend to deny the problems exist or they're drinking or drugs are tied to the problems, there's no good time to talk about family difficulties. And if the parent is drunk or high, it's impossible to talk. And when the parent is sober, everyone wants to forget. So don't bring it up because, you know, mom or dad are sober. Let's have a good moment. Later in life, though, the person raised in such an environment will probably lack the verbal and conceptual tools necessary to work through life's normal challenges because they just didn't know how to write.

I mean, you know, we're all part of our environment, which is a huge part of cognitive behavioral therapy. Right. Your environment, your life situations, huge factor. And even if things are going well in life, hopefully for you today, a lot of times what you did go through as a child will still have an effect on you today. And sometimes talking through with it with a therapist or friend or someone you trust, sometimes you can make connections like, oh, maybe that is why I'm a workaholic, or maybe that is why I don't have close relationships.

You know, like what are some of the problems in your life? And that they probably are connected if you grew up in a home where there is alcohol or drug abuse going on, another role that a child takes on different roles the kids take is the child might become either overly responsible or irresponsible. So kids grown up in substance abuse in families cope by attempting to stabilize the chaos in the environment. And they find ways to minimize conflicts or make the parent feel better because then their environments better.

Later on, they may become compulsive overachievers taking pride in these behaviors they learned while growing up. They're the ones who help others, yet harbor a lot of anger when others don't do for them to the extent that they do for others. Alternatively, siblings growing up in the same family might become irresponsible, hoping as they did in childhood, that others might come through and take care of their needs regardless of the outcome. When they grow up, they avoid looking openly into their own behavior and understanding the effect that it has on themselves and others and not even realizing it.

And you could have four or five, six kids all grew up in the same house and their stories may be completely different. I've met some families that I actually will say, like, did you all grow up with the same parents? You know, like it's really incredible because the different roles the children take on that, their experiences and stories are really different. I've known some families where somebody, you know, one of the kids is a scapegoat.

You know, they're the ones that are always getting in trouble. And the other kids get mad at that kid thinking they're causing the parents to be upset and go drink or use. So it can be really confusing and just really damaging to the kids growing up in the home. Their self-esteem and confidence are completely undermined because kids of substance abusers frequently failed to receive that consistent support for their ideas and efforts. Right. Hopefully when you're growing up, your parents are interested in your ideas and they're like, good job and all that kind of stuff.

But the needs of the parents usually come first when they're addicts, alcoholics and a parent on the influence usually lacks the discretion to realize the impact of his or her anger or sarcasm on the child. So when they grow up, the children doubt their own abilities and feel inferior or falsely superior to others, and they doubt their own abilities. They might compensate for this through trying to control the outcome of certain events. For example, get angry when things don't go their way or gossip instead of taking a sort of action to confront an issue.

Actually, in fact, they may feel guilty when they stand up for themselves or otherwise act assertively. They tend to spend their lives giving to others rather than take care of their own needs, as if their own kids aren't important. So when they do speak up, they'll feel guilty or think this isn't OK, because I'm always trying to take care of everybody else so that my life is better. Self-criticism is the rule. Those who grew up in substance abuse in households are known to blame themselves for their parents drinking or drug use.

That's really sad. They grew up feeling they can't do anything right, no matter how hard they try. And they long for the approval they didn't get growing up and they judged themselves and others without mercy live and bargain with themselves. For example, if I only try this strategy, I finally get approval and have success and I have to do it well. Thus they become perfectionists, which is a whole nother problem. Right. I have a podcast on that.

Furthermore, they do anything to make people like them remaining loyal to others, even when the loyalty is undeserved and they feel that people who like them will not be critical of them. What other show anger toward them or personally criticize them as they were perhaps criticized while growing up? They feel anxious and intimidated. So after all, they're their own worst secret critics. And to have others engaged, you're repeating the old patterns from childhood dredges up the unpleasant experiences.

Once again, it just feeds the poor self-esteem. Another common pattern is this respect is fear of authority figures. People who have power, they can sometimes be applied and arbitrarily. It often was in childhood. So not knowing what's going to happen in the unpredictability, show itself again as you grow older, you know, let's just say, you know, growing up is difficult enough as it is. But when a child lacks the support of an emotionally available parent, the task can seem arduous.

And there's lingering after effects which include life in adulthood. Many children growing up in substance abuse families can't wait to leave home with the notion that they will leave, put the past behind them and then move on to happier life. After all, they reason the past is the past. So I shouldn't just, you know, should just forget it and try to move on. Right. Unfortunately, the strategy usually doesn't work and leads to more problems is during childhood that we learned how to deal with other people, with trust, with intimacy, with our self-image and with our ability to process our thoughts and emotions, write our thoughts and emotions how to even process that.

That's why I think so many of us don't really even know what we're thinking because of whatever the dysfunction was that we grew up with. We were just trying to manage our emotions on a daily basis. And what we learned in childhood in a substance abuse and family perpetuates the old patterns. The lessons learned failed to meet our adult needs or the needs of our own children. So I just want to say, if you grew up in a home like this, do not fool yourself that it didn't affect you.

There's no way. There's no way. There's no way. It didn't affect you. And if you're not aware of that, it's time to maybe look at that and say, you know, what is it that I want to work on? How is it affecting my life today? I've had some people say, well, I knew my dad was alcoholic. I really never saw him drunk or when he was he was nice so that, you know, so they minimize and say, you know, it wasn't that bad.

But if a parent is under the influence, they can't be there for you emotionally 100 percent at that level that they're drinking. Right. And it's going to affect their life on some level, which in turn will affect your kids because you're completely dependent on your folks know coping in adulthood with a legacy of dysfunction is really tough. So the first step in coming to terms with an emotionally conflicted childhood is to admit it. And this can be really difficult.

We may have learned to use denial as a way of dealing with their parents substance abuse problem in much the way our parents used denial in dealing with their own use of alcohol or drugs. It may seem that the pain is more easily handled when it's cast out of our minds. And a lot of families, you know, as AA will tell you, you're sick as your secrets, meaning that, you know, children we were told to or not even maybe told directly to keep things a secret, not tell people what's going on, you know, all the shame that is connected to all of this.

So we don't want to talk about and we don't want to tell people. And if we do, we feel guilty because our parents didn't want us to. But it doesn't really go away. And the survival patterns we learned in childhood continue to interfere with happier experiences after we have grown up. It takes a lot of courage, you guys, to confront the situation openly and honestly. But the payoff can be life changing. A healthy, functional and satisfying life is possible and totally attainable.

Another strategy is to learn more about the patterns that characterize adult children for alcoholic or drug abuse in families. So, as I mentioned, there's some really good books on the topic, and you're always invited to reach out and find a therapist to examine the patterns and just see how your child's having an effect on the way you live as an adult. Like I said, you're not alone. Millions of adults grew up in similar circumstances and their support groups for adult children of alcoholics.

There's also Elhanan, which is a 12 step program for the families of substance abusers and their specific. You know, again, there's ACOA support groups. So an effective way of coming to terms with this problem is through individual therapy as well. And during the therapy process, you can learn more about growing up in substance abuse in households and that there really is no stigma attached to it. You learn about what happened and how it affects your thoughts and your feelings today, which is what we're here for, right?

For cognitive therapy, you come to understand your own behavior much better and you learn about different strategies for dealing with your loved ones, your friends in your job. But most of all, you can come to terms with the feelings you have about your parents and you may at some point learn truly to forgive them if appropriate. And that's something you want. You know, they were doing the best they could, even though they were because they were addicted and under the influence.

They couldn't do much more than they were doing. And they did cause you harm. And sometimes when we can understand that and work through our forgiveness, because that's going to benefit us, we can start to love ourselves more and we finally can learn that we are now responsible as adults for our own lives. Our choices are ours to make. We don't have to continue to live like we lived in the home when we were growing up. I know I've mentioned this in some podcasts that don't recall which one is at the moment.

But when you grow up, whatever situation you're in, we all find ways to cope, right, because it works for that situation. So there's no shame to carry because it's what I had to do to get through a difficult time. But what happens is then we leave that environment and we keep living the. Same way, and it's now working because we don't need to cope that same way, but we don't know anything else, right. We just keep doing what we know and it worked.

So that's why a lot of times there's issues regarding the emotional baggage that we bring into relationships, because we're living like, you know, we're still in our mom or dad's house and they're alcoholics or drug abusers. And that's just not the situation. So we need to be aware of that and say, OK, maybe that's why I keep repeating the same patterns. Why can't I get close? So I'm going to be a little more clear on some of the roles that I mentioned earlier that children take on.

So people who grew up with a parent who had substance abuse or alcohol often wonder how their brothers and sisters turn out to be so different, as I mentioned earlier. After all, everyone grew up in the same household. So why aren't all the siblings alike in all families substance abusing or not? Brothers and sisters need to claim their own unique identities, and we need to find ways that we're not like others in the family. This helps us from our own identities and a sense of self, right?

That's just for all of us. In the alcoholic or drug abusing family, each sibling finds his or her own unique way of coping with the conflicts. So Claudia Black, Dr. Claudia Black, who's an expert on adults from alcoholics, as well as some other famous authors, have identified different roles that can emerge among siblings, each of whom tries to make sense of their chaos. So I want to say, first of all, I've always been a fan of Dr.

Claudia Black. I had the honor to spend an evening with her one time when I was at a conference, and it just kind of happened. And I was just over the moon being able to talk to her. And she had worked years ago at a hospital for people that were alcoholics and drug addicts. And you can read her books and she talks about growing up as well in an alcoholic family. And they started to have family therapy. Right.

Working with the parents as they go. Well, and that's when she started noticing the roles the children took on. And she was one of the pioneers with creating all the information and the treatment for adult children of alcoholics. And it's just been fascinating. So one of the roles is called The Hero. So these children try to make sure that the family appears normal to the rest of the world so they develop a strong sense of responsibility and project an image of competence and achievement.

This is often the first born child, but not always. They learn as children that someone has to be responsible for the family. If the parents are inducing chaos, it is up to the, quote, hero to provide stability. So these people often grow up to be academically or professionally successful, although they often deny their own feelings and they feel like imposters. So if I can do everything right, also, my parents will be happy and I'm not going to get in trouble as well.

And that's part of the hero. And let me say to that, you just don't have one role in that set. You may have several roles. Another one is called the adjuster. This is someone that in order to cope with the conflicts within the family, these people adjust, but often in inappropriate ways. They often become invisible and avoid taking a stand or rocking the boat. They learn never to plan or expect anything, and they deal with conflict by avoiding it in adult adjusters may feel that their lives are out of control and that they are drifting meaninglessly.

Just to share a side story, my husband gives me permission again. A podcast I talked about, a surprise blessing in my life was meeting him and being him, being in recovery. But there was a time that my husband, my mom all lived together and when he came into our house, he'd always come through the garage. And then you walked by. My mom and my mom was always in a personal growth like me and, you know, address things and talk deep.

And, you know, she was really great that way. And her my husband really loved each other and got along well. But a lot of times he would come in and walk by and not even say hello. And so one time she stopped him and just said, can I ask you, you know, why don't you say hello when you come in? And he took a minute to think about it. And he said, you know, growing up, it was better for me to kind of stay quiet and kind of blend into the world work so I wouldn't get in trouble with all the things that were going on in his home.

So my mom was like, OK, you know what? They really got closer and it made sense. And then she didn't personalize it, but he wasn't even aware. It was just, you know, something he just did. Like he wasn't consciously like, I'm going to walk past and not say hello to Helene. I'm just going to it's just what he did. Right. So so him becoming more aware of that and be able to make that change was really enlightening for him.

And again, you know, if you're not in therapy and you've gone through all this, that's the kind of stuff that you can start noticing when you just don't even realize that your old behaviors are still playing a role in your life today. Another role that a lot of kids take as the play. So these siblings are the ones who learn early to smooth over potentially upsetting situations in the family. They develop a good ability to read the feelings of others, but at the expense of their own feelings, they tend to go into caretaking professions later in life, even though this may reinforce your tendency to ignore their own feelings.

So they're always kind of trying to make. Things better for everyone else to make things OK. And, you know, let's just kind of go along. But again, they can hurt themselves because they're ignoring their own feelings. And then we have the scapegoat. So these are their children become known as the family problem. They have a tendency to get into trouble, including alcohol and drug abuse, as a way of expressing their own anger at the family.

And they serve as, quote, the pressure valve in the family. When tension builds, they misbehave as a way of relieving pressure while allowing the family to avoid dealing with the parents drinking problem. When they grow up, they tend to be unaware. Feelings other than anger and anger is sometimes a comfortable feeling to have when you're feeling so emotional because it gives you a false sense of power, right. And people tend to stay away and give you that space when you're angry and you're not going to be asked to get vulnerable, be close.

So a lot of times that would come out with the scapegoat. So these are just a few of the roles. There's more than these four that I've talked about. And again, you can have one. You can have two. You know, based on where you are in the family and your role and how you dealt with the parent will determine the dysfunctional coping skills that you take on that can be really significant in your life. So, you know, again, I'm not here pointing out like blaming the parent.

It's not about blame because all people like, well, I don't want to blame my parents. We're not blaming we're just stating the facts like, let's get real. Let's talk about what happened in our families and saying that was really hard. And even though maybe you have a parent that Soberanes really healthy today and it's really maybe got involved with 12 steps and the program and is doing fabulous, you know, if you haven't worked on your stuff, you're still going to carry your issues from when you grew up in that home where it was going on.

So to have some self compassion and some self love and say, you know, I'm going to go talk to somebody who understands this or knows about this or I'm going to read I'm going to start reading some books. So Dr. Claudia Black, the one that I like the most that she talks about, all her books are good, but the one I recommend the most, I should say, is called It'll Never Happen to Me, which is such a great title, because if one in three adults have issues, as I was saying at the beginning, or grew up in families where there was alcohol or drug abuse, then a lot of those kids, you'll talk to him.

And, you know, as you're growing up, like, I'm never going to be like mom or dad. You know, I hate that they drink. I hate the use. I'm never going to be like that. And so you say it'll never happen to Me, which is the title of your book. And then you find out like, oh, my God, this has happened to me. And they also say, if you don't deal with these issues again, a lot of these kids end up being drug or alcohol alcoholics or you marry one because there's some familiarity with the other person's behavior.

You might be like, oh, my God, how do I end up marrying an alcoholic or an addict? But if you don't deal with your stuff, you're just going to repeat some patterns that are familiar in your life, even if they're not good. Right. So that is her book once again is called It'll Never Happen to Me. And there's you know, you can just look up adultery, alcoholics, you can find groups, you can find some other books.

That will be one I would start with. And my favorite is with my cognitive behavioral therapy, of course, is the mind over mood because we want to start figuring out and understanding what was your environment. Right. What are your thoughts about growing up in a home like that? What are your thoughts about your parents? What are your thoughts about your siblings? What are the issues going on in your life today? Still regarding personal life, work life?

Might your career, what is what are some of the issues, the repetitive issues that maybe you're too controlling or you're not motivated trying to be a perfectionist? There's so many ways that this can play itself out in your life and really recommend, if you haven't pursued that to, you know, check out some of the groups, support groups out there, go find a therapist and, you know, just say this is the home I grew up in and I want to start understanding myself.

It will just make so much more sense to you and you can start making those changes and start using the CBT tools so that just because I think I have to be this way, for example, I have to be the hero, I have to keep things together. Nobody else can do it. But me doesn't mean that that's true. And having that thought can just create a lot of stress and anxiety in your life, or I'm never going to be able to trust anybody.

I can never have a healthy relationship. I don't even know what that looks like. Another half thought that that isn't true just because you think it it causes you to feel depressed and then you're not motivated and then, you know, maybe you're using alcohol or drugs like your parents did and you want to break that chain of abuse because you can see when you do family trees, there's a history a lot of times of other addicts are alcoholics in the family.

And you can break that chain and you don't have to continue it. And then your children or your grandchildren and, you know, generations on can be healthier and be talking about the things to be careful about and to share shared with your with your kids, you know, what you went through. And that they need to be careful because they have the tendency that they could become an addict, alcoholic. Because if it's you or their grandparents or whatever they went through, so, you know, we tend to just repeat what we know and I'm just sharing with you that you don't have to keep doing that and using the kind of behavioral therapy can really start making a change.

So that's it for today. I hope this was helpful. There's so much more to talk about in this particular podcast.

So if you have a burning therapy question you'd love answered or if you have suggestions or any feedback, you can email me at MyCBTPodcast@gmail.com.

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Thanks for joining me. I'm going to go take a walk with my Paisley!

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And remember to always make decisions based on what's best for you, not how you feel.