Episode #86
Phobias, Aviophobia, Fear Of Flying & CBT
ft. Antoinette Gupta, MS, LMFT, Psy D
Phobias, including aviophobia (fear of flying), can affect your daily life and relationships.
How should you view fear?
What help is available for phobias?
How can you use CBT and EMDR to regain control of your thoughts and feelings?
Join me, Dr Julie Osborn, and my special guest, Antoinette Gupta, as we share with you practical ways you can use the power of CBT to help with phobias.
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Full Episode Transcript
Dr Julie
Hi, welcome to My CBT Podcast! This is Dr. Julie Osborn. I'm a licensed clinical social worker and have my Doctorate in Psychology. I specialize in Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. I'm here to help you bring the power of CBT into your own life. So I appreciate you being here with me in this podcast. My dear friend and colleague, Dr. Antoinette Gupta, is going to be talking with me about phobias, especially about flying. I have a lot of emails and inquiries about getting help, about getting on a plane and traveling. So we're going to talk about her specialty, which is EMDR, as well as using CBT to address this issue. And as always, we will give you information at the end of the podcast how to reach both of us if you have more questions. But I think this is going to be a really helpful session, something a lot of you guys will be able to relate to and share with others. So thank you for being with me, Dr. Antoinette Gupta - thank you so much.
Dr Antoinette
Julie, thank you for having me.
Dr Julie
And just because we're friends, we're going to call each other Julie and Antoinette. But she will be sharing with you in just a moment her specialty and her background so you'll understand where she's coming from, and then we'll go from there.
Dr Antoinette
Sure. So, as you know, I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, and I'm in private practice in Irvine, California. For more than a decade now. I work with mostly individuals, couples and families with young children, adolescents, and teenagers. And the issues that I mostly treat are anxiety, depression, post traumatic stress, relationship distress, trauma, and different types of phobias, such as fear of flight or fear of the needles, fear of driving, claustrophobia, addiction. And then after that, we have addiction, separation, divorce, and loss.
Dr Julie
Excellent.
Dr Antoinette
In my practice, when I treat clients, I incorporate my orientation is incorporating emotion focus therapy along with cognitive behavioral therapy and EMDR. These are my three main aspects, and these are the tools that I use.
Dr Julie
Excellent. Okay. That's why I thought it would be good to talk to you, because you also do CBT like me, but your specialty is more with the EMDR. And then you mentioned the EFT, which is the emotional focus therapy. We're going to focus more on how the EMDR and CBT can help with the phobias today.
Dr Antoinette
That's correct.
Dr Julie
Okay, so what do you find are the most common phobias you address, would you say?
Dr Antoinette
Mostly. So I've had clients coming in for fear of flying, fear of driving, whether it's on the freeway or just driving. Generally, it could also be claustrophobia. Many people are very afraid of going into elevators or going into enclosed spaces. And I've also had kids who have had a lot of fear of needles going into getting their shots or doing blood work. Blood work, dentist work?
Dr Julie
Yes.
Dr Antoinette
Those types, yes.
Dr Julie
Excellent. Okay.
Dr Antoinette
I just want the viewers to know what EMDR is good. So it stands for eye movement, desensitization and Reprocessing. And what that means is that we make use of eye movement. So they move their eyes to a light scan, to lights that move back and forth. So they would just follow the light moving back and forth. And so what this does is that it's hypothesized that this studies have shown that this seems to help their distress, their anxiety, to alleviate their anxiety in the body.
Dr Julie
Okay, so it's just something in your brain, I'm guessing, is that right?
Dr Antoinette
So it's hypothesized that when something bad happens, things get frozen in time. In the limbic system, the person has all the information in the left brain, which is basically all the adaptive information about what went on, but they're not able to make sense of this particular experience that has happened to them. And so with eye movements, it kind of mimics the way we experience our rapid eye movements, called REMS, that we naturally have during deep sleep. So the scientific hypothesis behind that is that when eye movements are done in an awake state, a client is awake. Now, it's not like they're sleeping. So in an awake state, moving their eyes back and forth kind of helps the right brain and the left brain to kind of integrate and reprocess and.
Dr Julie
Reprocess, which is the R, which yes, I know. That my understanding. It was first really used for military, because they have post traumatic stress. Right. And we get triggers that sometimes we don't expect or see coming. And that's what it triggers when we get triggered by something. And then we just react to the…
Dr Antoinette
…feelings that are associated with the original experience that a person may have had negative experience.
Dr Julie
So somebody, say, had a bad plane flight. Right. Or somebody was locked in a closet as a child or something terrible. With abuse like that, they can be claustrophobic from that. Or obviously, like I said, with the plane. Right.
Dr Antoinette
And now they perceive anything right now to be a threat because that's what.
Dr Julie
Their brain tells them.
Dr Antoinette
That's correct.
Dr Julie
Right. So what you do is helping them.
Dr Antoinette
So with eye movements, it kind of helps a person to first and foremost reduce that anxiety. And once that anxiety is reduced, then we make use of something called cognitive restructuring. That's where CBT part of it comes in that kind of transforms the person's original negative belief that, hey, I'm in danger, or, this is unsafe to feeling. Hey, I am safe, and I can do this.
Dr Julie
Yes.
Dr Antoinette
That renewed sense of confidence and renewed sense of sense of control.
Dr Julie
Right. Excellent. Okay. And I want to share so some people I've met that they may have had a bad flight.
Dr Antoinette
Absolutely.
Dr Julie
Yeah. I've had also a mom who didn't want to have her kids hear, like, quote, freaking out on the plane. Right. That was a concern. And then I have a step mom who she never had a bad plane flight, but after 911, she didn't want to fly again after what happened. Yeah. So it's not that she was curious because she wasn't actually on the plane. It was like, oh, I had bad turbulence, I had this or that, but I saw what could happen.
Dr Antoinette
That's right. That's kind of like a contagion effect of empathizing with another person. And then also while empathizing, you are also traumatized by the thought of, okay, this is not safe anymore. So your brain is now already saying, hey, this is currently very dangerous.
Dr Julie
Right. So whatever any of our listeners might be going through, absolutely. It's all okay.
Dr Antoinette
Yes.
Dr Julie
And people might say, what are you talking about? You have a bad flight, but if it's a problem, it's a problem, and you should go get some help. So you don't let it control your life.
Dr Antoinette
That's right. If you're listening, you're in the right place right now.
Dr Julie
Yes, you are.
Dr Antoinette
So, I mean, just let me start by kind of at least saying that fear is not something that we need to kind of be afraid of. Okay. It's a very primal defense mechanism. It is very important for our bodies. Without fear, we are not going to be able to survive. So it is our friend. We need to kind of look at fear as a compassionate friend that's going to be there to help us when we need it. But for some reason, sometimes when we assume something to be dangerous, then that threat is playing a role that it does not know how to play. So all it does is it just kind of goes black and white. It's either safe or dangerous. So it's our turn. It's our CEO of our brain that kind of helps to decipher. Okay, now let me kind of really figure out, is this really a danger or is this safe? And I'm actually kind of somehow thinking that this is dangerous. It's our perception of what we look at. Whether it's safe or dangerous is what matters.
Dr Julie
Yes. And how much control we have. Right.
Dr Antoinette
How much control we have.
Dr Julie
Yes.
Dr Antoinette
And so I wanted to kind of make sure that fear is seen as something that is real, but it's the perception of what is threat and what is dangerous is so important, especially with the fear of the fear of flying and the stats. For example, I just want you guys to know that 25% in the United States, 25% of the population in the United States experience some form of fear with flight and intense fear. When people have intense fear, it's around 6.5%, which means what we're talking about is more than 20 million people in the United States have a very intense fear of flying.
Dr Julie
Yeah. And I bet without the world, I'm sure it's close to that amount too, right?
Dr Antoinette
Absolutely. This is by according to the National Institute of Mental Health, by the way. So this is a good statistics to know that you're not alone. The first thing to know is fear is not something you need to be afraid of, and you're not alone.
Dr Julie
Okay?
Dr Antoinette
Okay. Flight phobia is also known formerly as aveophobia, and it's like aviation. Aviation.
Dr Julie
Okay.
Dr Antoinette
And it's not something you're born with. Absolutely. Many of these phobias are actually learned, and they can be overcome. That is the most beautiful thing to know about this, is that you can overcome that.
Dr Julie
I always tell people anything learned can be unlearned and we can learn something new.
Dr Antoinette
Absolutely.
Dr Julie
Yeah. It's important to remember.
Dr Antoinette
And so I think the aviation or sorry, the flight, what we call flight phobia or aviophobia, it definitely has two parts to it. So there are people listening out there who may be just saying, hey, I don't feel anxious, or I don't just don't feel panic, but I just don't know the nitty gritty of what a flight entails.
Dr Julie
Yes.
Dr Antoinette
So what's important to know is that flight phobia, in order to really get to the bottom of it and stay and have a sense of control, we need to know that there's a technological or educational aspect of flight phobia, and there's also the psychological aspect of flight phobia. So it's very important to know the nittygritty of what is unknown. So what is unknown can actually make our brains immediately go to the primal panic response saying, hey, you're not familiar with this, so it must be really scary. So to kind of know that you don't fly often, but the one that you don't know. What is aviation process like? What is the Federal Aviation Authority? What do they do? What is the training involved for pilots? And so there are a couple of online resources right now that are really helpful to kind of help ease this technological to get more information about them. The more you know about them, the more power you have and the more sense of control you feel. So the first resource, I might add, is this book called Soar. It's written by Captain Tomban. He is a licensed clinical social worker as well as he is a very seasoned pilot.
Dr Julie
Excellent.
Dr Antoinette
And he's written a book about this whole thing about what the flight entails, what the pilot needs to do, and what is the aviation process like, what is the engine feel like when the plane takes off and all the little sounds that the flight makes, including turbulence. When it comes to flight, he says these are all nothing to be worried about because the more you know about it, the less your brain is going to say, okay, I know this feeling, I know this sound.
Dr Julie
It's safe.
Dr Antoinette
So there's that. Not just a book, but he also has an online resource which will be given at the end of the podcast. I guess we can kind of go look at that. Okay. And there's another captain named Stacey Chance, and he's got an online, free online resource that people can go into.
Dr Julie
Excellent.
Dr Antoinette
And they can kind of take a lesson for free online. And again, most of it talks about the technological aspects of flight. So if you're one of those people that are really afraid of not knowing what things are, what the whole process looks like, this is one of the most great start.
Dr Julie
Yeah. And I think you told me before, too, we spoke before we started the podcast was thinking about how the pilots also want to get home to their families.
Dr Antoinette
Absolutely right.
Dr Julie
I never thought about that before. About how they want to also get home and be safe and they have family that wants to come back.
Dr Antoinette
That's right. That's a very important point. What you're making is the next point that we're going into is the psychological aspects of the flight. Phobia.
Dr Julie
Okay.
Dr Antoinette
So from what I know about clients with the other side of this, with the psychological aspect is when you ask clients, when I ask them, what is the most disturbing part of your flying experience currently? What is it that's going on for you? Clients have varied fears. Okay. So it starts with one of the most common fear I've heard is loss or separation. Leaving loved ones behind or having loved ones with them. So first let's talk about leaving loved ones behind. There is a thought that says, I'm irresponsible if something happens, I don't deserve to be happy. I don't deserve to have the freedom to go and explore because what if something happens? They're dependent on me. Now, if it's a mother, if it's a parent, this psychological fear is generally seen to happen with people in their late twenty s. Thirty s when they have families.
Dr Julie
Yes.
Dr Antoinette
This fear tends to kind of take precedence. So there's that part. And then there's also people who have little kids in the flight and say, if something were to happen, I'm responsible for my kids. So again, you have to map balance. Look, you want to live.
Dr Julie
Yes.
Dr Antoinette
But then you carry on this burden of carrying these thoughts and these thoughts are really going to just add to the fear and controlling your life.
Dr Julie
Right. Like, I'm not going to go explore and have all these great experience memories with my family.
Dr Antoinette
And so you're impacting yourself that you're impeding that freedom for yourself. But at the same time you're also remember, you're also impacting your children because now they see you and go, okay, mom's not going or dad's not going because they're afraid. So that means is the world really is so terrible that I cannot do it. So they may end up feeling like I cannot do this either.
Dr Julie
Right? Yeah. And you do a lot with the kind of therapy, with anxiety. We talk a lot about the what.
Dr Antoinette
If thinking, the what if thinking this.
Dr Julie
Is all what if this happens? What if that happens? Yeah, I agree with you that anxious parents have anxious kids. Right. So if my mom's scared, then she's correct and being scared.
Dr Antoinette
Yeah, absolutely.
Dr Julie
Yeah. So then I don't want to do it either.
Dr Antoinette
That's where EMDR and the CBT part of it comes in to help them reduce their distress and then take on that, replacing that negative thought to more like, hey, this is something that I can do and I'll be okay.
Dr Julie
Yes. So let me ask you this. I don't know if I'm jumping too far ahead yet, but to go through and do the MDR me with a specialist like you or wherever you guys live to find somebody. But with our podcast today, are there any tools you could give someone that they could take away to maybe start working on this on their own?
Dr Antoinette
So the first part, I think, and before we continue with the psychological aspect, I think yeah, the question, and that's a very important question, is whether you're dealing with the technological aspect of it or the psychological aspect of it. You have to somehow learn how to self regulate.
Dr Julie
Okay.
Dr Antoinette
And one of the most important self regulating exercise is the deep breathing. There are a couple of different deep breathing exercises. The most important one is the diaphragmatic breathing, which is basically if you're right now hearing, if you're right now listening, you can try this right now while we're doing this podcast. You deep breathe in. When you deep breathe in, you almost visualize your tummy moving outward. And then you deep breathe for four counts, hold for two, and then you let go for four. And while you're doing this, the next time when you deep breathe in, tell yourself the words, I will. And then when you breathe out, tell yourself, relax. You can use mantras like, I will relax. It will be okay.
Dr Julie
Okay. As you're breathing.
Dr Antoinette
As you're breathing okay. So we can get creative. As creative as we can get. So we can also use healing light, a light that you associate with healing.
Dr Julie
Okay.
Dr Antoinette
And you can imagine when you're breathing in, it's almost like it swoops away, the disturbing feeling. And then when you breathe out, it'll just breathe out that tension along with that healing light.
Dr Julie
So you want to pick an information that you connect with and that you feel you believe it.
Dr Antoinette
Absolutely.
Dr Julie
Right. So maybe even that you breathe in, I will maybe be safe.
Dr Antoinette
Be safe.
Dr Julie
Or I am in control. Right. And part of the CBT with that is I always tell everyone what you tell your brain really matters because your brain believes whatever you tell it.
Dr Antoinette
Absolutely.
Dr Julie
So if you say I'm not safe, your brain believes you. If you say I am safe, your brain believes me. Right.
Dr Antoinette
That's exactly it. When they're doing these so this relaxation techniques is basically like it's kind of like a bandaid because you're controlling, you're bringing a sense of grounding. And once the grounding hits, then when you have already done your eye movements in therapy and also with the cognitive restructuring, like you just mentioned just now, is to perceive at that moment when you're breathing, you will then start to let yourself really believe what you're saying. Yes, I will be safe. I will be able to have control.
Dr Julie
Yes.
Dr Antoinette
That's the reason why we start with relaxation techniques. And so once people start to learn it, then when they're doing eye movements and when the replacement of these irrational beliefs take over to more realistic beliefs, then these techniques become very effective. Okay? Yeah. And so, Julie, I wanted to continue to share some other psychological fears that could come about. So we talked about loss and separation. The other part that I have that clients talk about most disturbing aspects of their experience would be post traumatic stress experiences. Like you just mentioned in the beginning of the podcast, either vicariously learning through, like, someone just died of a plane crash or they might have experienced something very disturbing on flight.
Dr Julie
Yes.
Dr Antoinette
Like complete very bad turbulence.
Dr Julie
You know, what I just thought of now is with COVID, these passengers are punching the stewardess and out of control. Absolutely right.
Dr Antoinette
They have no control of leaving. They have no control of exiting.
Dr Julie
Yeah. And you're hoping the staff can handle that. And how scary is that?
Dr Antoinette
Absolutely.
Dr Julie
That would be a new one. That will be a new one.
Dr Antoinette
Just so you know. So there are things that are being put in place right now for that. The flight attendants are also they now know how to kind of deal with people who are very abrasive and who are very aggressive on flight. This brings me to the next psychological fear is especially people who don't worry about the flight, who are, like, all comfortable about everything, except they're so afraid that they may have a panic attack on board.
Dr Julie
Okay.
Dr Antoinette
Okay. So that means that they're afraid that they may be embarrassed in front of people, they may lose control. And at the same time, what if this leads to a medical issue? Will there be someone there to help them? So that in itself, just so we work on that. One of the most important things to remember, there are a couple of things. One, any kind of anxiety or panic is not going to affect your body. It's not going to harm you, but it's going to be very uncomfortable. It's going to feel very uncomfortable. That's where the relaxation techniques and the eye movements that you've done and the carnage restructuring that you've done is going to kind of all come to play. Okay. So with that, just know that for the medical aspect of it, the flight attendants have special training to take care of CPR, AED, Defibrillators.
Dr Julie
Yes.
Dr Antoinette
They actually go through the training to be able to do all of those. Okay, so just know that you're going to go there.
Dr Julie
Yeah. Not that you would need it. Even if you go to panic.
Dr Antoinette
Exactly. With panic, it almost certainly will not.
Dr Julie
But just knowing that, just knowing that.
Dr Antoinette
Your brain is just going to go, oh, okay, so I am I can.
Dr Julie
Be taken care of.
Dr Antoinette
I can be taken care of.
Dr Julie
Worst case scenario.
Dr Antoinette
Worst case scenario, yeah. And that's all your brain will need at the moment is to feel and know that you are in control even though you feel like you're not. And so along that there's also this claustrophobic feeling that people have with panic is that they look at the door and as soon as the door shut is saying, oh my goodness, I'm trapped. Yes, but with EMDR you are going to restructure. That the cognition there is. Instead of going to I am trapped, you're telling your brain, I'm safe now because it is now closed, everything is going to be fine. And most importantly, one of the most important aspects is to know that the pilot that's flying this flight is another person just like you. He is a human being that has a family to go to. Okay. He cares about you just as much as he cares about his family.
Dr Julie
Yes.
Dr Antoinette
So pilots take this extremely seriously. If you want to know who is the most control freak out here, it's not you, it's the pilot. And driving, for example, on land, you take chances, whereas on flight, nothing is taken. Nothing is flown out of chance. Everything has three or four backup systems.
Dr Julie
Yeah, good point.
Dr Antoinette
So just know that if you are wanting to meet pilot wanting to meet the pilot before the flight, it can be arranged. Just know that nowadays pilots, they know about people having fear.
Dr Julie
Can you share? You told me before about this letter that therapists write.
Dr Antoinette
Therapists can write a letter on behalf of for you and in order to be given so the letter can be given to the flight attendant to take over to the pilot. And so he most likely they will come out and meet you and set that part of your anxiety down. So that kind of feels like I can surrender that control to a person who's not going to take it 110% seriously about taking you safely to the place that you want to go. So all you need to do there is to just sit down and feel like you can kind of think about your destination, think about what are all the good things and some things you'll be doing yes. Versus thinking about, oh my gosh, I need to go and I need to fly right now. Right.
Dr Julie
So if somebody is in treatment already and getting help and then they ask their therapist, therapist who might just say, this is my client, they have this fear of flying and they really meet.
Dr Antoinette
You and I just have to meet them for a couple of minutes.
Dr Julie
Okay. I never knew or even thought I know you could say to the serious, like, hey, I'm nervous, and they can talk to you. But I'd not thought or heard of people ever getting a letter, which is simple and easy. Right. And just for you guys to know, this will be like if you have a therapist and you work with them, it's not to call a therapist, say, Hey, you just write me a letter. Be somebody when you're under their care and they know their story. And I suppose if you want to write your own letter, that might be enough too, right?
Dr Antoinette
Absolutely.
Dr Julie
Yeah. You don't need it. You can write in your own letter if you think you're not going to say it.
Dr Antoinette
Right.
Dr Julie
Or you rather just hand it to the steward and say, here, can you give this to the pilot? And just nervous about being on the plane?
Dr Antoinette
Absolutely.
Dr Julie
Yeah. So either or you could do it yourself.
Dr Antoinette
Absolutely. And to add to both the psychological aspect and the technological aspect of the phobia, we bring in another part of CBT, which is very important. So far we've talked about the cognitive restructuring piece, right. Like how we change the perception from it's dangerous to save, I have no control, versus I can I will be okay at the end of it, I have a sense of control. There is another part aspect of CBD that's also used in EMDR. It's called exposure. Part of it. Now, there are two types of exposure. Generally, when we treat clients with phobia, say, for example, they have an elevator claustrophobia. On elevators, the most common treatment there is eye movements with something called an in vivo exposure, which is basically taking the client right there to an elevator and helping them practice. So the idea behind that is the more you expose the person to an unfamiliar, unsafe thing, the better the brain is going to feel like, okay, this is not really as scary as it is.
Dr Julie
Right.
Dr Antoinette
So the more you do it, the more desensitized the brain gets.
Dr Julie
Yes. And then it's like it's gone. Right.
Dr Antoinette
But in flight, we can do a little bit of both. So there's one in vivo where you can go to the airport, you can kind of sit there, and maybe therapists can write you a letter where you can actually get into the lounge area or into the gate. Sitting there and watching the planes land or take off, you can hear the plane a lot. Clearly. There maybe there's that the other part. If you're not able to do that, then that's no problem. We can do something called imaginal exposure. What that means is, using eye movements, we play video clips or we have a client listen to an audio clip of, for example, the plane taking off and the thrust, also called the engine speed. The engine sound is so loud and so scary that you feel it in the room even though you're not there. And then eye movements are down to desensitize that distress that you don't feel okay. So I just wanted them to kind of know that EMDR incorporates a lot of we have relaxation techniques for self control. We also have eye movements to kind of help desensitize the body sensations that are disturbing. Then we take cognitive restructuring from CBT to kind of help them change their perception of the flight itself from being dangerous to being more safe and then to use imaginal exposure to make it even more to enhance the feeling of control, even.
Dr Julie
Yes. Let me with the in vivo with being there because how high security it's hard to get in the gate. So I just want some other ideas. I know we're in California. Some of the airports now have where you're waiting for it to pick somebody up. So without having to, quote, park, it's like these cell phone parking lots, they call them. But anyways, you could sit there, you could watch the airplanes go up and down. Sometimes just if you the start is just driving past the airport, maybe that's as much as you can do. And then you go parking the parking lot and then buying the tickets.
Dr Antoinette
That's right.
Dr Julie
These are different types, little steps. So it's not just like you might be going, they're not going to let me sit in the gate, which that's a good point that they may not let you, but there's these other things that you can do before you actually get like, on the flight. And then I guess packing your bag probably, right. I'm getting ideas as I'm talking, but this is a very different thing.
Dr Antoinette
What you're just bringing out is an excellent point because that's what the entire therapy entails.
Dr Julie
Step by step, step by step, all.
Dr Antoinette
The way from we have the client. Imagine sitting down and making that first booking. Okay. And what is that? So it's almost like going through it in your mind, imaginary what's going to happen one at a time. Booking the appointment oh, sorry. Booking the flight, then booking the hotel or wherever you're going, and then getting ready to prepare for the packing. What is that like to pack your luggage and then pack your toiletries and then take either are you going to go on a rental car? You're going to drive yourself, have someone drive you there. And then what is that like to be in the parking lot? Then what is that like to go into the airport, check in, then go to the security check, and then you have the lounge area, then you have the gate.
Dr Julie
Yes.
Dr Antoinette
Everything is one step at a time. So it all depends on where you feel stuck, whether you cannot. And so for every client, we start off from that starting point till the end, where they finally can imagine what that is like when the plane lands and then they're out of that. So that's the whole experience. And again, like I'm saying, this is not something you want to kind of for some clients, it's not about, Oh, I want to kind of enjoy the flight. Hey, that would be awesome if you enjoy the flight. But what we are trying to say is be realistic. You just want to see this as another mode of transport yes. So if that is all you need to do, that's very realistic and really, I cannot see why anyone can not overcome this right.
Dr Julie
People do when they do well and other clients call me and say, hey, everything went great.
Dr Antoinette
Absolutely.
Dr Julie
I feel so much better. Also, part of my CBT is I work on action plans, so I say, what are some things while you're on the plane? Because I don't want you just to white knuckle it. Right. So take your favorite book, maybe you're going to watch a movie like the….
Dr Antoinette
..Book, you want to do a lot.
Dr Julie
Of those tips in Soar, yeah. So that you want to have things of pleasure that you can be doing while you're on I know I'm not nervous to fly, but just sometimes I'm on a long flight and just watching movies just makes it go by.
Dr Antoinette
Absolutely. And Captain both the captains that I've mentioned so far, captain Stacey Chance and Captain Tomban have an audio that you can download their voice and every single sound that the flight makes, they're with you.
Dr Julie
Yes.
Dr Antoinette
You can download that and you can just listen to it. Yeah.
Dr Julie
And there was an I plan I was on before, I don't know if other planes have this, but I know it was JetBlue and I was really impressed that they had Headspace, which is a relaxation app on the plane, and they had the one you can listen to for flying and I'm like, how ingenious is that? And that was at least a few years ago.
Dr Antoinette
That's right.
Dr Julie
So you can put your headphones in. They're getting smarter…
Dr Antoinette
That's correct.
Dr Julie
…That people need a little bit of help.
Dr Antoinette
That's right.
Dr Julie
And they had the app on their little TV that's right. And I said, this is fantastic. Great.
Dr Antoinette
Absolutely. Any person can listen to it, you just don't have to be afraid to kind of listen to it. But the fact that you feel more confident, feel like, hey, so that's something.
Dr Julie
You can practice too.
Dr Antoinette
Absolutely.
Dr Julie
Listening to you could Headspace or whatever app you want to listen to absolutely. And pick one for flying.
Dr Antoinette
Absolutely.
Dr Julie
And so when you listen to it, it won't be the first time when you're on the plane, you'll be like, Oh, here's the one that I like and it really helps me and reminds me to breathe and all that.
Dr Antoinette
Absolutely, yeah. Again, I really do feel like I really do believe now with the number of clients that come in and then have that success story, kind of makes you really feel like, wow, it's not something that is just written in book and somebody's out there just feeling it. This is not a feeling people actually do it and feel yes. They can share that story saying, hey, look, I really have done it, and it feels great to know that not that, Oh, the feeling was great, but the fact that I could do it yes. And not feel like this is a threat.
Dr Julie
You feel good. It's accomplishment.
Dr Antoinette
It's a big accomplishment. And that is something you need to kind of really feel proud from the inside out. And I think one other aspect that I would really like to add is with the medication, some clients have asked whether, hey, can I take medication? Hey, I'm not against medication at all. But what I would highly recommend is that when these tools, for example, medication is, like I said, the relaxation tool, when you learn and if you don't do the eye movements or you don't learn the cognitive restructuring, these relaxation techniques may not be as effective as when you do the whole treatment.
Dr Julie
Right.
Dr Antoinette
It's the same thing to do with medication. So when you do that, you don't really need the medications because medication is, again, like another Band Aid. Right. It's not just me. I think the doctors recommend that as well, because it's like, it's the right dosage and at the right timing. If you don't take it, if you don't follow those, it could actually give you a little more of so not following those requirements of taking medications might actually cause more anxiety, might make you feel more anxious, or it may not just be helpful at all. It may not even have any effect at all.
Dr Julie
Right. Because taking the medicine, since it's a Band Aid, it's not going to make you feel like you have more control because you're more dependent on something else working exactly. And then go back to the what is right. What if it doesn't work now? I'm screwed, but I have nothing else because I've done nothing else.
Dr Antoinette
That's…absolutely, yeah.
Dr Julie
And that's not the experience we want you to have. Yeah.
Dr Antoinette
And that many doctors are really acknowledging.
Dr Julie
That in the mind over mood, dr. Benberger and pedestrian in the anxiety chapter talk about medication. And then Dr. Burns, that I have a lot of training with, talks about that medication has its place, but these Clonopin volume adds, and those medications in the long term don't really help you, and they're addictive and all of those things that at the core, we want to change your belief systems and have you be like, whatever, I'm going forward in I have tools.
Dr Antoinette
That's correct. If you have self regulating tools already put in place, I'll be okay. Then you'll be okay.
Dr Julie
Yes.
Dr Antoinette
And I think most importantly, you feel like so I was just about to say that I think I don't mind or I think doctors recommend just giving you medications, and I would say maybe keep the medications with you in your purse or in your hand luggage. And that in itself is your brain is already going to feel safe to know that, hey, there is a backup.
Dr Julie
Yes.
Dr Antoinette
Just even knowing that there is a backup. I've had clients tell me that they've done EMDR and they're ready to go. But after doing the EMDR, they say, I don't know, I don't feel anything. I don't know if it's going to work, but I'm going to take my medication just like that in my purse anyway. And they've taken it and they called me back from when they land, and they're like, guess what, Antoine? I didn't even need to take any medication.
Dr Julie
Yes.
Dr Antoinette
It was just there with me just in case. And a couple of them said, I completely forgot that there was no medication.
Dr Julie
Good.
Dr Antoinette
So just knowing that, I would recommend that, hey, if you want to have to take your medication, just take it with you.
Dr Julie
Yes.
Dr Antoinette
And not use it. Okay.
Dr Julie
So let's just review for a minute. So with the CBT, if you're using the Mind Over Mootbook or whatever workbook you're using, is doing the cognitive challenging restructuring reframing, where what are my hot thoughts about what I think is going to happen and challenging them. Practice the breathing techniques, finding an EMDR therapist if you want to do that, extra therapy regarding helping with the fear. So there's lots of tools, but there's things right now you can do regarding the breathing exercises, working on the CBT, driving by the airport, parking in the parking lot, making the appointment. Not the appointment, the booking, all of those things. So there's some things you guys can take away from our podcast today. And then if you feel like you need more, antoinette is going to share with you how you can find her. I'm going to share again how you can always find me and any other. Wherever you're living in the world, you can find therapists that are trained like we are that can help you as well.
Dr Antoinette
Absolutely.
Dr Julie
So how can they find you if they would like to find you?
Dr Antoinette
So all of you are listening, just reiterating that fear is not something to be afraid of. It is very important. It's part of your body. And you're here to learn how to be your own CEO of your fear. Okay? You'll be your own CEO of yourself. So this you definitely can overcome. And if you would like more information about this, like I said, the Soar book out there by Captain Tom Bunn. There are online resources. All of that will be kind of listed down in the podcast. And if you'd like to know more about what I do, you can reach me on my website. It's www.AntoinetteMFT.com. Or you can reach me via email. If you have any personal questions, I would be more than happy to answer it's Heal@AntoinetteMFT.com. And I think those things will again be listed in the podcast for you. Good luck. What would you say, Julie? Like, what would we like to leave the viewers with?
Dr Julie
Feeling like, feeling empowered, power, and knowing that you're not alone.
Dr Antoinette
Yes.
Dr Julie
But you can overcome this and not to let it control your life and put down some things maybe on your bucket list of places you want to go visit absolutely. And get excited about that and just see how phenomenal that you can get it anywhere in the world pretty much in a day.
Dr Antoinette
Absolutely.
Dr Julie
Right.
Dr Antoinette
We have the opportunity, we have the….
Dr Julie
Chance to do that. Exactly.
Dr Antoinette
Which we didn't decades ago.
Dr Julie
Decades ago. Yes. It gives me the opportunity to live with the life that I want fully. So I just need to go get maybe a little bit of help, and I can get there.
Dr Antoinette
Absolutely. And just so you know that these resources are just resources out there. I think it's highly recommended that you do a combination of using those resources and doing cognitive behavior therapy or EMDR or both to kind of get the best discount.
Dr Julie
Yes. Okay. Excellent. Thank you. So I hope this is helpful for all of you. Again, if you have any questions, you can reach Antoinette, you can reach me at mycbtpodcast@gmail.com.
I'm on Instagram under MyCBTPodcast.
My Facebook is Dr. Julie Osbourn, and you can also go to my website at mycognitivebehavioraltherapy.com. All my information is on there, and if you need me to get your information to answering that, I can do that as well.
So please reach out, give us some feedback. We can answer extra questions that maybe we didn't address today, and I appreciate you sharing your time with us.
If you enjoyed this episode, please hit the Subscribe button to make sure you won't miss the next one. Thanks for joining us. Thank you again, Dr. Gupta, for being with us. It was super helpful. I'm here to help you guys, and that's my intention with my podcast, so the more professionals and extra tools I can share with you. That's why I asked to have some guests, because I just want to be there for you and be able to address the things you're struggling with.
So thanks again for joining us.
Stay safe, and remember to make decisions based on what's best for you and how you feel.
Bye.