Episode #85
How CBT Can Help ADHD - Part 2
ADHD (Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder) is a frequently-used term for a disorder that often goes undiagnosed.
How does ADHD affect a person with their daily activities?
What can help a person cope with ADHD?
Join me, Dr Julie Osborn, as I interview my daughter, Molly, in part two of this series about ADHD and how you can use the principles of CBT to help ADHD.
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Full Episode Transcript
Julie
Hi and welcome to my CBT podcast. My name is Dr. Julie Osborn. I'm a licensed clinical social worker and I have a Doctorate in Psychology, specializing in Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. I'm here to help you bring the power of CBT into your own life. So before we get started, I wanted to share an email, as I always liked to when I received them from you guys, which I love keep sending my way. I appreciate it with questions, suggestions, letting me know how the podcast is helping you.
So this one says,
“Dear Doctor Julie,
I'm in the UK and I recently discovered your podcast and I've been listening to it every day since I listened on my commute to work in London and after work. It's helping me reframe my negative thoughts and I find my mood is improving when I'm at work. Thank you for providing your podcast.
“However, I'm still feeling really anxious and stressed out about my relationship.”
So it was kind of a long email. So just to summarize, this is someone that although she loves the person and they're wanting to move forward, she's still feeling anxious and not sure if she's ready to move forward. She's afraid if she doesn't make the decision, it will be too late. She doesn't want to regret all of these anxious thoughts, right? All this what if thinking that she's having. So in my response back to her, I just shared that I suggested she go meet with a therapist for someone to help her process her thoughts using the CBT tools, finding out what her goals are, how she feels about the relationship, trying to really figure out what is it that she's fearful of. Right? Because fear is at the core of anxiety. So there's some fear that she has. She's not being able to put her finger on it. But it's really great that she's at least thinking about it and not just doing what she thinks she quotes should do, right? And not really honoring herself. So by thinking about what's best for her and not just saying yes because everybody's telling her, this is a great person, you guys are a great fit, you have a great life together. She's really honoring herself by thinking about what is best for her, but she's not sure exactly how to get there. So again, my suggestion is that you find a therapist to go talk to, work it out, because it's a huge decision to get married. We hope we only do it once, right? So you really want to take the time to know that you're making the best decision possible, and if something doesn't feel right, listen to your gut and honor yourself. So I wanted to share that email because I think that's when we can all relate to. I'm grateful that my listener sent this to me and she's finding the podcast helpful and learning what you learned from me here. I know it can be super helpful and sometimes we need to go find a professional to help us just get a little deeper into what's bugging us, what am I really thinking, what are my fears, and walking through that process. So I hope that was helpful.
Okay, so today's podcast is my Part 2 of CBT and ADHD. And I'm thrilled that my youngest daughter Molly is with me here today, and she's going to be sharing a personal perspective to help those out there who have ADHD or if you know somebody to really understand more. I know part one talked about the logistics of ADHD and the symptoms and all that kind of stuff, but now I want to know how does this really impact people's lives and what to look for and what her experiences? So she's 24 now, but she's got a lot to share with us just about her whole life and how it still affects her today. So welcome, Molly!
Molly
Thank you.
Julie
I'm glad you're here with me. So let's start off first with how you feel that ADHD has impacted your life. Positive? If there's any positive, obviously there's been negative. So what would you want to share with others so they could understand better?
Molly
It's something that negatively affects my life every single day, but it's in such tiny things, and I think a lot of people who don't have it have a hard time understanding how much it just affects everyday activities.
Julie
Okay, so what would be some of those little things that you might not others might not notice?
Molly
So since having the ADHD brain is more dopamine motivated, if you're not enjoying to do a task, your brain doesn't make the connection that it needs to make in order to complete that task of, for example, just everyday chores or making your bed or something like that, just little things like that. Your brain just doesn't operate like a normal person to get everyday things done. It's not fun for you, which sounds really funny to most people in childlike, but it's just the way that type of brain works. Yeah.
Julie
So I would say if it's not fun or if it doesn't feel like accomplished to you for you to make your bed, you don't feel like, oh, good, that's done. Right. So you don't get that dopamine that I might get when I do things.
Molly
And if you do it, the amount of energy it takes to, for example, let's say if they're doing their best and they're not getting that feeling to do it anyway, it takes so much energy out of their brain to do it way more than a normal person's brain. You can also just feel so exhausted after doing like a lot of normal stuff for most people.
Julie
Okay, all right, so that's good to know, right? Because otherwise other people's perception of like, oh my God, just make your bed, they think what do you think about you? That they're lazy or that they don't really care yeah, that's true. Right. So maybe you'd like, hey, make my bed, have my room straightened up. But it takes so much energy and you don't get anything out of it that you just tend to avoid doing those things. Is that right? Okay. Are there other things you can share about how it's impacted? Like, how about school? How has it impacted your life with school?
Molly
Because girls get diagnosed so much later. I just developed a lot of anxiety around school because I didn't know that anything was wrong. So I think it could impact school in a lot of ways. You're not going to be diagnosed with learning disability and you're not going to be diagnosed for AHD least as a girl if you're young. So you're just going to be left having a lot of anxiety around going to school that might stay with you for the rest of your life. I know no matter what gender you are, because of the experiences of having ADHD young, 100%, everybody who has it will either develop depression or anxiety or a mixture of the show.
Julie
So you think that the ADHD gets lost where people are getting diagnosed with anxiety or depression and they're not getting diagnosed with the ADHD?
Molly
Yeah, because I think it can be it's a symptom of it because of the experiences around having it, especially if you're not diagnosed.
Julie
Okay. So if you're not diagnosed or even if you are, maybe in school, you might be able to say to raise your hand to answer question, right? Yeah. Because what if you're wrong and then you might start overthinking. So that's kind of where the anxiety comes. Or I think I've heard where people are like you're in class and your friends are just like cruising and answering a question or doing the work and you're kind of just staring at the paper. So then I think your experience has been referred to other people too, is that you think that you're not smart, right? Because you're not able to keep up or do well in school. Is that fair to say?
Molly
Yeah.
Julie
Right. So I think I share this in the first podcast, and I've had this with people I've worked with as well, is that if you're not diagnosed, or even if you are, and if you're not getting the support you need, you personalize what you can't do. Right. And then your self esteem is affected negatively because you think you're not smart or people think you're lazy or you're not trying hard enough. Right. And you're feeling too frustrated. Like, I want to try, but I just can't get there. So then I feel bad about myself. Right. I know there's a lot of fighting in families of, like, just turning your homework, just get it done, just do it and we'll be done. And there's a lot of fighting that goes back and forth when people don't understand what you're really going through. Is that fair to say yes, it's fair to say. Okay. All right. I think I might have shared on the first one, but if not, it's worth repeating that when Kovitz started, I wanted to do a bunch of spring cleaning, so I had my kids pull out like that, boxes of report cards and pictures and all this.
Julie
And do you remember what you found when you went through your report cards?
Molly
That we laughed about the exact same thing, which was why it was smart, but I wasn't applying myself.
Julie
Right. And Molly went to excellent school. We moved to where we live for the school district, and none of her teachers and I don't have a complaint about any of them in elementary school and middle school, nobody ever, ever came to us and said, I think you should get her tested for ADHD. Right.
Molly
Yeah.
Julie
Ever. And all the report cards, they all said, she just needs to try a little hard. She just needs to try a little harder. Because you didn't disrupt the classroom.
Molly
Most girls do not disrupt the classroom.
Julie
Yeah. Because they have more of the intensive type of ADHD. Not the hyperactive, like the physical hyperactive.
Molly
Where they can't but the hyper can be in your brain. A lot of people don't realize that. It also just means usually, always, if you have ADHD, your brain just goes at such a higher pace, thoughts wise, than other people, which I think is why sometimes it's hard to grasp onto certain thoughts, because it's just going so fast all the time that people don't realize that that's happening internally.
Julie
So that's the hyperactivity for you, is that your thoughts go so fast, but it's not that you can't sit still through a class.
Molly
Yeah. No, I wouldn't say I have as much issue with that.
Julie
Right. And that's why I think nobody noticed. Yeah, right. That maybe you had the ADHD. Is that fair to say? Do you remember boys in your class kind of being hyper and getting in trouble?
Molly
I think so. Not directly, but I think so. I think just inevitably, that's just how they assume boys are.
Julie
Right. Whoever causes problems gets more of the attention. Yeah. Right.
Molly
And they do most symptoms based on how boys symptoms are. So girls tend to not get diagnosed right. As much as they do. Right.
Julie
Okay. And then we talked about, too, that a lot of people, like you said, you don't get diagnosed with a learning disability, but you thought maybe you had a learning disability. Is that right?
Molly
Well, I know something's wrong when I was in second grade, but in fourth grade is when I learned what a learn disability was. And I thought that's what I felt was wrong. I just didn't have a word for it. I remember being really excited, and then I just was told that I didn't have one and that, yeah, I just need to apply myself more.
Julie
Right. So now I think I know what it is. And now I'm told I don't have one. So now I'm stuck again.
Molly
Yeah. It just made me feel stupid because I remember when I was younger, I would read a book for school and I would have to read a page like ten times for my brain to really encapsulate what was happening. I would have a hard time. It was just blank. I feel like I read the whole page and then I have no idea what I even just read.
Julie
Right, so that makes sense. Thinking maybe reading learning disability or comprehension problems. Right. So then you felt like you kind of got back to the beginning where something's wrong, nobody knows what it is. And I'm frustrated, but now maybe I'm just not smart. Right. Okay. So I hope a lot of you guys can relate to this and what Molly's sharing when it's hard to maybe put into words or even explain to people in your life what's going on. So let me ask you this. What do you think that you've been able to learn? Let me back up for a minute. So I got diagnosed in high school with ADHD and she started some medication. So let's talk about some talking about that medication. What are your thoughts and feelings about medicine? Do you feel like it's helped you? Do you feel like it's a good route for certain people?
Molly
I guess I think it's a good route for certain people, especially if you're in work. That's highly detailed, I guess I would say. Or if you're in school. It totally changed my with school, it totally changed my grades. I went from barely a C to a student just from the medication. Once I found the right medication.
Julie
Okay, so you had to try a couple before you found worked for you. Yeah. Okay. And dosage. Right. Also. Right. Okay. So can you explain what you feel like when you're on the right medicine, the right dose? Like, what does it feel like?
Molly
It feels like the best way I was explaining to people is it almost felt like I didn't know this, but it felt like my brain was fogged my whole life. And when I took the medication, it just cleared up everything because stuff that was felt like I had to put so much energy into doing, I could just do, and I had no problem trying the next thing. It would take me a whole day to do my homework assignment and I would be so exhausted. But after I took it, I could do so I could finish my homework for the whole entire week in a day. Wow.
Julie
And then you realize I am smart.
Molly
Yes. And I was able to sit in class and I could understand and I was taking in all the information that the teacher was talking about. Okay.
Julie
So that felt good. Okay. Alright. But I think for you and this is something everybody has to find their own path regarding medication. And I want to just say as a professional regarding medication, like, go to a psychiatrist. I know a lot of people get this from their GP, and if you want to get started with something, but it is a specialty, and there's a lot of different ADHD medicines out there. And go get a good evaluation. When Molly went, I remember this, that we figured she had it and runs in the family also. So that's something else you can look at. But the psychiatrist I met with her, I think it was like, 15 minutes to ask you a few questions. I remember saying, do you want to do more testing? Oh, no, blah, blah, blah. And, you know, it worked out because Molly doesn't have the ADHD, but it can be missed for other things. So go somewhere where someone is really doing good testing, and you want to find out if you have the specifics, like, I talked about my other podcast, whether it's more hyperactive, if it's more intensive, what kind of ADHD do I have? Because based on that, you're also going to get prescribed what kind of medicine will work best for the kind that you have. It's not just this general blanket medication. So that's super important. And I know for you, you just use it as needed, right? So it's not the kind of medicine you need to build up in your system, like, say, an antidepressant medicine that I know some parents don't give it to their kids on weekends just to give them a break, and they'll just use it during the school year. Some parents use it year round because some kids are so hyperactive. It just helps calm them down, and they can follow direction not with school, but just with, like, everyday life. But for you, you found it helpful just to use it as needed. Is that right?
Molly
That's what's best for me.
Julie
Okay. All right. And so having a good relationship with your psychiatrist, I know Molly feels like she can talk to her psychiatrist, and they've again, adjusted medications. They've gone up in doses, they've come down. So you need to be a really good person that can report back to your doctor what you like, what you don't like, what it's helping, what it is. And so your doctor can help you with that as well. So going back to you. So with coping or handling it, what have you found helpful that you would advise other people to do other than medicine? Because that's part of it. Other things that you have found that have been helpful to deal with it or manage it or what helps you.
Molly
I definitely notice, even though I should do it more when I work out, it makes a huge difference.
Julie
Okay.
Molly
It feels very similar to how I feel when I'm on medication, a little bit less, but it feels very similar to that, which is good on a day that I don't want to take medication, but I feel like I need to get things done.
Julie
Okay, so working out in the morning?
Molly
Yes, working out in the morning.
Julie
And that lasts you the whole day?
Molly
Pretty much, I would say so.
Julie
Wow. Okay.
Molly
And learning what your learning style is is such a big thing because in school, they mostly teach based on visual learning style because 70% of people are visual, but I'm auditory, so if you're auditory or kinetic, it would be really helpful to know that. Even if your visual, it's helpful to know that because, for example, now when I go to school, I just listen to my books on audio, and I'm able to digest the information so much easier than I can if I'm just reading.
Julie
Okay.
Molly
Just things like that. Or sometimes if I do have to read the book, it's always helpful that I write notes on the books. And then if I don't really understand or if I don't really remember, I can just look back at my notes. But I prefer to do auditory books. That has been such a big difference. I can read it way faster, and I totally understand all the information.
Julie
Okay. And I think, too, you shared with me that you've really educated yourself on what ADHD is. Right. What's the one YouTube you told me about? Really?
Molly
Like how to ADHD?
Julie
Yeah. And that's on YouTube.
Molly
And I also like ADHD Alien on Instagram comics, educational, but they're very relatable and kind of funny.
Julie
Okay. And the how to ADHD, what's on my YouTube? What is it?
Molly
Just everything explaining. It explains to animations, which I think is good for kids as well, how the brain works and the whole thing of how you can't make the connection when you're supposed to get certain things done that maybe aren't going to give you that dopamine release. She'll explain how it's almost like a bridge that connects to another bridge, but somebody with ADHD. I have a bunch of those panels missing. And she explained it in a way that's very easy to comprehend if you're a kid. So obviously, if you're an adult, it's extremely easy to understand as well.
Julie
Okay, excellent. Any other ones that come to mind? So the YouTube, the Instagram?
Molly
Yeah, those are the main two that I can think of at the moment.
Julie
Okay.
Molly
If we think of any others, we can have them in the show notes.
Julie
Yes. Okay. And then exercise. Have you noticed anything with diet that helps, like higher protein or different things that have been helpful? Because I know they say in the literature, like high protein, really? Exercise is good.
Molly
I don't think that I have played around with the diet thing as much to know, but I would assume so. But I haven't personally played around with the dieting enough to know.
Julie
Okay. By no means. Me and your dad had read some books on what to learn. Molly was an avid soccer player, and we didn't know that real intense exercise like she got was helpful, but that was something she was doing also throughout high school, which is really helpful as well. So that's really good too. And going back to the exercise for a minute, too, I know you mentioned to me that you feel like you relieve stress, which is important.
Molly
Yes, it does relieve a lot of stress. It helps with my anxiety regulation that I think comes from my ADHD.
Julie
Okay, excellent. So it exercises a lot of stuff for you, and then what is it you mentioned to me before about there are certain triggers to help you get motivated? What do you do or what helps you?
Molly
So you can play certain games with your brain if you're not taking medication to trick it into doing those things. So, for example, just simple stuff like you can make a timer for the amount of time you are ten minutes straight, and then after the ten minutes, you get a five minute break. You can do whatever you want. It's kind of tricking your brain to have that reward system, which for somebody with an ADHD brain is very good. It breaks it down so it's not as overwhelming. But also there's a dopamine release at the end, which is the way that your brain can make the connection to get things done anyway.
Julie
Excellent. Okay, so timing any other things that you do?
Molly
That's the main one that I do. If I'm not taking my medication, I mean, I have to do that. I feel like that's the main one that I do.
Julie
Okay, and would you agree that the way your brain works, that you get bored easily?
Molly
Yes.
Julie
Right. And that's where a lot of parents I've talked to would be like, oh my God, my kid plays video games all the time, or they're always on their phone and I say to them, have you ever looked into the ADHD? Because I know part of that is your brain wants constant stimulation. So that's why video games or games on the phone is constant stimulation.
Molly
Oh, yes. When I do study, I do listen to music because it makes it easier for me to focus.
Julie
Yes, that's an excellent point. I wanted to say. Okay, so some people I've talked to that have more hyper focused ADHD where they're hyper focused, like they don't need anything else when they're doing something. Right. But with the inattentive, you like to have music on in the background. Yes. Okay.
Molly
I like to put my husband's in and put music on, and I don't know how it works, but it just makes my I'm able to focus so much better.
Julie
Okay, maybe it's because you need more stimulation to help you focus. Right. So I think some parents will be like, no, that's going to get you distracted. Don't put the music on, or don't have the TV in the background. Or whatever. Right. But it really works opposite for you.
Molly
Yeah. And there's a bunch of really good playlists of any type of genre of music that you like. Lyrics? No lyrics, anything like that. For different studying as well that I listen to.
Julie
Okay, so how do you look that up for one? For studying?
Molly
I use the ones on Spotify, but I know you can look them up. If you want a free one, you can look them up on YouTube. I'm sure they have them on itunes as well. I just haven't used them personally.
Julie
Okay, so how would you look it up?
Molly
What do you put on Spotify? I just put Study Session and it'll come up with a bunch and it will show different genres of them. And then on YouTube, I would probably do the same thing.
Julie
Excellent. Wow, that's a great one. I didn't even know that she did not share that with me. Anyway, just to let you know. I love that. That's really good. That's really good. Anything else that you think you want to share for maybe the person with ADHD to have just more compassion and patience with themselves or that you really want others, like parents to know that you think would be helpful?
Molly
Yes. What I did learn from how the Ad was, she explains how it's not just these black and white symptoms as everyone thinks, how it's portrayed a lot in the media of, oh, I just can't focus. It's a lot more complicated than that. And each person is very complicated. And one of the things that I learned that really changed my perspective on it was that the emotional regulation is extremely different from the average brain as well. So you're going to experience emotions at a way higher level than the average person, which I think especially if you have a kid that's not diagnosed with it might be a kid that maybe has a lot of tantrums or can be very reactionary, but that's more they don't understand that their emotions are more heightened than the average person. So especially if they're not diagnosed here and not really understand what's going on. But you might also not understand why they're reacting in such a I don't even crazy in such a I guess in an irrational way from your viewpoint. But that is a part of it that people don't really know is that the emotional regulation is very different from that person.
Julie
Okay. And difficult at times. Okay. And that's great to know. And what do you think with people that procrastinate? Is it because they're not getting that dopamine release? They're not motivated?
Molly
Absolutely.
Julie
Okay.
Molly
Because when you do it, you meet so many people and they get their stuff done really well, but they always just get it done super last minute. It's more of learning how you can do stuff so you don't have to be so stressed out while doing it to make good things. I think that's always the struggle, or they can see that you are very smart is because when you're doing it, you're so stressed out. But that's the way that your brain can make the connection that you're going to put out the essay or homework or whatever you're supposed to do, and you're going to get a great grade on it most of the time. And they're going to see that as I don't know, they're seeing all the other stuff that comes with this, maybe. I think that's why sometimes teachers might have a hard time picking up on it, right?
Julie
Because they say, like, wow, you did a great job. Why did you put yourself through all of the procrastination? We know that procrastination is to avoid something anxious, but we also know that when you procrastinate, you get more anxious because it's always there that, I got to do it, I got to do it, I got to do it right. So then you're doing it last minute, but doing it last minute also gives you that dopamine shots, you're telling me. Right?
Molly
It's like similar to when people get addicted to running late all the time. It's that they always say that you get, like, a rush from being late. So I guess it must be a rush of being like, am I going to make it on time? Am I going to make it on time? And it's the same thing, but with ADHD, it's like you need that rush to get things done. So I've been sitting there before trying to do an assignment when I have no medication, and I could sit there for hours, and I'm just blanking, and it makes my brain hurt just doing it. I've talked to people where they're like, you're physically, your brain will hurt when you're trying to do that. But when I have my medication, it's totally a different story. Super early. It's almost that I want that's the crazy thing with medication. It makes me want to get it done early. I don't feel that way. I'm not on it, but it makes me get it done earlier, and I feel accomplished when I turn it in. Yeah, I think with the whole procrastination, you need it to make the connection in your brain. Even if you try to do it early, if you're not taking medication or you're not doing some of the other hacks for it, it's almost impossible.
Julie
Right? Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't work. Right. Because when you're procrastinate, you could have something happens, and then you actually do run out of time, and you can't get things turned in, and then you're going to have a meltdown after that. So, yeah, it's very hard to manage. And I say Molly and I struggle is we're complete opposites with what we're talking about. I don't have a speck of ADHD. Molly will be like… she's cleaning the kitchen. She's like, Okay, Mom, I'm not going to have it done the way you want. And I'm like, that's fine, just go ahead and do it. I just want you to do it. I'm fast. I like to get things done. I'm not perfect by any means, but I'm not a procrastinator. I get the dopamine. I see what she goes through and the stress. So my brain is like, why would you wait till the last minute? You're so stressed out. And sometimes we have a conflict with sometimes the computer, the portal she's on will shut down, and she only has a little time to get the paper. So I'm thinking if you just get it done, it'll be easier. And I've had to really learn how to breathe and step back and understand more and have her educate me. So now I'm just like, okay, you're going to do it your way, and that's the way it's going to be. And I could say one of them I'm mistakes, just one, because I have many mistakes I made. Parenting because we're so different, is I think I compensated too many times. And I would just do things sometimes, or I would send the emails to the teachers to help her catch up. Like, I remember there was a math class in high school, and I was the one emailing like, how can we get this done? Okay, mom, do do this this, do this because you feel like you just want to compensate, because you just want to help them just pass, just get through. Right? And so I'm not saying as a parent not to help, but you also want to give your kid that space that they need to learn how to do it for themselves. Everyone needs to learn their natural consequences, but what's going to work best for them. And in school, once Molly got diagnosed, she also had I want to remember I can't remember the right number. I think it's a 502 where she would have a plan in place where the teachers have, like, a specific basket where she put her homework or like, if she needed extra time on a test, she was able to have it. If she wanted someone to take notes in class, she could have that. If she needed to go to a room where it was quiet, or they would let her go somewhere else to take tests. So make sure if this is something your kid has or you're listening, it's for you, that you can get help with school. You can go through the disability's office, which I know is a whole other issue because some kids don't want to go, quote, to the disabilities office. But if you do go, you can get this extra help so you can be successful, which is the goal, is to be successful. Know that you're smart as anybody else. And I know I mentioned this in part one, there are many successful people in the world that have ADHD, not entrepreneurs.
Molly
Yes.
Julie
Which probably works better for them because they're not going to sit in an office and take orders from somebody new every day.
Molly
Yeah, it's definitely not good if you have ADHD to have a job where it's the same thing every single day.
Julie
Right. And I think a lot of people with ADHD are very like you're super creative, dad's, super creative. Right. Very artistic. You always have different ideas and there's some things you can really focus on and take time to do.
Molly
If you are interested in something and you have ADHD, you will have the hyper focus that naturally happens. If I actually like something like painting or something, I can sit and do it for 8 hours and I won't even notice that all the time goes by. That's why I think it is important for your job or even tricking yourself with school to make yourself like it. Because you will have the hyper focus, which I guess I would say is the one positive thing of having it. But the hard thing is hacking how to get into that mode.
Yes. Right.
Molly
Once you get into it, you can do anything. Like, for example, every time I've had to make like a poster project for school, I always was the one that they would save my poster to use. For example, I obviously didn't know this when I was younger, but when I would do that when I was younger, I just could get into that state because it was something that I really enjoyed doing.
Julie
Yes. Another great thing. Molly loves makeup. She does these phenomenal eye makeup. She comes out and I'm just like, oh my God, where did you learn to do that? And it takes time and patience. Just don't slap it on like I do.
Molly
Right.
Julie
I mean, it's all this fancy stuff, so it really has an eye for that. So the creativity part. So to be open and allow yourself to figure out what interests you. And if you have people in your life, if it's your parents, if it's your spouse, whoever, help them get educated so they also can understand. And I think with something, it's not always about going to therapy, but therapists can help you create some plans and like to be organized. So I know I share this again on part one, but I know for my husband, he always put his keys in the same spot. He's got his gym bag, he's got a surf bag. He stays as organized as he can because he will lose stuff. You put stuff you're like, oh my God, where did it go? I remember what I was just walking into the room for. Do you find that challenging too? Right?
Molly
Yes.
Julie
Being organized, is there anything you do to help? It's good, we can laugh about it. Go ahead.
Molly
What do I do to help? I don't know. I guess we have those drawers and stuff in the bathroom that helps me with different categories for the different drawers and things like that.
Julie
Okay. Like cleansers makeup.
Molly
Yeah, I try. I'm not the best. I'm working on it. I least do ten minutes in the morning, ten minutes at night, trying to organize or clean and whatever, because that seems to be my cap of my brain. Feels crazy. Sometimes I have to do it while I'm listening to a podcast or I'm watching a YouTube video. That seems to help.
Julie
Listen to my CBT podcast sometimes, and many other ones I know you enjoy. Okay. Like I said, there's a lot to learn for the person that has ADHD as a parent. What's best and how can you help them organize but also give them space? Because there's a lot of times we were guilty of this as younger. A lot of arguing going on because we were frustrated and didn't understand. And just to show you an example, right. I am a therapist. Sometimes things are right in front of your face and you don't see it. I know people would probably assume, like, I would have solved this early on. And you know what? Probably because just like her teachers, she just didn't get stuff done. She wasn't hyperactive. Nobody was coming to us. I just didn't pinpoint it until later in life. And that's something that I wish I did better at. And me and Molly have had our own struggles, and we've worked together to get past that, which I'm grateful for, and I try to do whatever I can to support her, to have gotten her the help regarding medicine. And we've done therapy together to talk through the struggles we had growing up because we didn't understand what's going on, and hopefully we've been able to heal and repair from that.
Julie
And some people all grow ADHD and some people don't. So most likely Molly will have the struggles going forward and the things that she's learned to put into place and finding her way regarding what her career will be will probably be being an entrepreneur, I would think. Do you think so?
Molly
I would think so.
Julie
Yeah. So that's where she's going to get her most joy and fulfillment and most success, I think, right. And if you enjoy something, it will be easier to be focused.
Molly
Oh, it's so much easier because it's fun for you.
Julie
Right.
Molly
It's kind of funny, but ADHD brain is kind of simplified, almost like people see it as kids, like. But it's kind of simple in that sense, where as long as you're really enjoying what you're doing, you can do it probably better than most people because your brain can be so hyper focused. But it is unfortunate because little everyday things that don't really give you fulfillment, like the hardest thing in the world.
Julie
Yes. And let me ask you, do you think it's hard to learn from hard to learn from your mistakes or things that didn't work? Do you think it's hard to learn. Like you don't look back and say, okay, I'm not going to do that again, or you're able to do that.
Molly
I think some things are easier to learn from others because yeah, I would say that I'm not going to do that again. But then I would just more change my scheduling around my medication. Usually I didn't want to be in the same situation where I felt like I always was doing all my homework due on Sunday, on Saturday or Sunday and it would be so stressful, but I would get it done. But I would try to remind myself that just because I'm getting it done doesn't mean I'm getting it done in the best way possible. Because when I just end up stressed and have extreme anxiety the whole time and then I would repeat it the next week. So I would just try to space out my tasks for a certain day. So I would do a certain subject on a certain day. Usually that would help me as well.
Julie
Okay, that's good. I think something I think I've noticed with you and other people with ADHD is sometimes not having a good concept of time. Like you think you have a lot more time than you do.
Molly
I think I feel like I have a lot more time than I do. My brain will just have a hard time connecting in that way. Like I said, where I need to get it done, where I can sit there and I'm trying to do it early and I just can't make the connection. This is the best way that I can explain it.
Julie
So even if someone says, hey, you really should start right now, that doesn't help.
Molly
That doesn't because I can sit there and have nothing else distracting me, quote on quote, except for my brain, obviously, but I could sit there and try to do it and it's just going to be so difficult.
Julie
Okay, so I find if I do.
Molly
Do that, let's say it will take me a long time to finish one paragraph versus if I do it closer to the deadline, which isn't the best. I can write my entire paper in the same amount of time that it took me to do one paragraph right. And I don't have that exhaustion feeling right.
Julie
Okay. So I think a lot of people can project on to like, oh, this works for me, it should work for you. But those people don't have ADHD and they don't understand, right.
Molly
Their brain works very differently. A normal person's brain has a different motivation system than somebody with ADHD. And because ADHD symptoms tend to be things that quote, unquote, everybody deals with, everybody doesn't want to do stuff, everybody would want to procrastinate. They think that it does get confused more for your lazy or people not understanding, but it's more when these things affect your life to the detriment. It's not as much that like, oh, everybody deals with that because these people are dealing with to the point that it's negatively affecting our lives over and over again. So why would you continue doing that if that keeps being the outcome? I can understand why people who don't have to find it very confusing because they too, maybe don't want to do certain tasks, but their brain is able to make the connection to do them when it comes to schoolwork and things.
Julie
Right. And what you said, I think is a great example of where parents and children argue. Yeah, right. And then just before we finish up, because you talked to me about this before, can you share one more time about how the depression or anxiety is usually connected to aviation?
Molly
Yeah, so it's just depending on your experience. So I definitely do more with anxiety. But I would say maybe on the depression spectrum of things, I can understand a kid who's not diagnosed. And I know you keep trying in school a lot. I feel like this is what happened to me, but I have anxiety. I can understand how somebody maybe get depression from this, where when I was younger, I felt like I would be trying a lot, but it even made it harder than other people. But I would be not getting as good A grades and it didn't really make sense to me. And it just made me develop anxiety of being stupid or not knowing things. So I had extreme anxiety for school. I would have horrible panic attacks when I was really young, I used to pull my hair out of my head while I was in school. I didn't know that that was from anxiety, but that's what was happening because I had so much anxiety about being in school all the time. It just made me feel bad about myself. So I can understand the whole feeling bad about myself more just gave me anxiety to be in that situation. But from somebody else, I can understand it. Maybe that would just make them depressed, which I think randomly tying and working out is a good one because I think when you take physical accomplishments that your brain can't fight against, it can make it easier for you to see that you can get things done rather than listening to your brain having a hard time doing. I don't know if I'll explain that about that.
Julie
Okay, so getting help is not just treating the ADHD learning tools, but for people to be aware too that there may be anxiety or depression that's connected because of the experiences of having the ADHD.
Molly
Yes, absolutely right.
Julie
And to pay attention to that, and maybe that's more where the therapy can come in as people learning the CBT tools to help them with the depression and the anxieties. Because Molly's Hot thoughts were that I'm stupid, I can't do it, everyone else is smarter, I'm never going to accomplish things. Those are all her Hot thoughts, right? Her thoughts that weren't 100% true. And it was hard to really convince her that that wasn't true because she's like, Oh, look at all my struggles. But now the time has come and she's found things that help her in medicine that you don't think that you're stupid anymore, you know, that you're smart, you just have to do things in a way that works for you.
Molly
Yeah.
Julie
Is that a good way of putting it?
Molly
Yes. And I would say if you have a kid, like I said, diagnosed, especially later, that it would be good to have them in therapy, because my mom was very confused that when I got diagnosed that I was really angry because you would think that I'd be so happy about it. And it was this weird, bittersweet I was happy for maybe five minutes. And then I became extremely angry because I did say when I was younger that I thought I had a learning disability. And everybody told me that that wasn't true. And so I just became really angry when I got it older because I felt as though, quote unquote, I already had all the damage and anxiety from having been undiagnosed my whole life. So I think just also, you might be really excited, and it's good to be excited, but also understand why maybe they might not be super happy about it, but I was happy that I had an answer or a reason for these things. But I was angry that I felt nobody noticing me, these things. And I struggled for way longer than I felt that I needed to. And then it had effect on me with my anxiety and things like that.
Julie
And I will say that's all legit. I would be angry too. And like I said, we've worked together to work through this because I felt super bad. Also, I had guilt that I should have noticed this before, and especially with my husband having some ADHD and his family. Like, I still go back thinking why we didn't address it sooner. So we've talked through all that, and I totally acknowledge and understand the anger that Molly felt. And I would have been angry too. Yes.
Molly
I would say if your kid says anything about them thinking they have a learning disability or something else, I don't think it hurts to just go get a test for anything, whatever that may be. Maybe that OCD ADHD or they do have a learning disability I wouldn't go off of, which I understand why everyone did. Everyone off of the fact that all my teachers said that there was nothing wrong when I brought up thinking I had a learning disability. But I would just say, listen to your kids regardless, because no one knows that better than themselves. And I would go get them tested anyway, just so that you know and that they know.
Julie
Yes, even if nobody in your family died now. So it'd be like oh, we have no family history. It doesn't matter. And my generation, which is just one, obviously, before Molly, ADHD wasn't really diagnosed when I was a kid. It's much more common now. So don't worry about whether I'm saying, yes, it's in families, but whether you know or not, don't let that stop you from getting your kid help. All right? Excellent. Excellent. I think it's going to be super helpful to all my listeners. I'm super grateful my daughter sat down and was so vulnerable and honest and shared. It's going to go a long way. And again, I'm really grateful. We've learned a lot as well. I've learned something today just listening to you again, sharing things. So it was super helpful. So, again, I hope this was helpful for all of you.
If you have any questions, you can contact me at mycbtpodcast@gmail.com.
I'm on Instagram under MyCBTPodcast; Facebook - Dr Julie Osbourn, and you can find all my information on my website at mycognitivebehavioralthey.com. I'm going to ask Molly to just review a couple of the resources as well, because I know we talked about them earlier. So the one for the podcast, not the podcast, sorry. The YouTube is called what?
Molly
How-To ADHD.
Julie
How-To ADHD? And the Instagram is ADHD Alien. ADHD Alien. Okay. And then you go on any of, like, Spotify or any of the other music sites and put under what?
Molly
For study sessions.
Julie
Study sessions. They will come up with songs. Yeah.
Molly
All different genres or whatever music you're into.
Julie
Okay. That helps with studying. Okay. So we want to be creative and find different things at work. And there's a lot of good books out there to read about ADHD as well.
So, again, thank you for being with us. If you have found this helpful, please hit the Subscribe the button so you won't miss any other episodes.
Thanks for joining us. Stay safe.
And remember, make decisions based on what's best for you, not how you feel.