Episode #168

The Power of Female Friendship

I recently had an incredibly powerful experience with some female friends who I haven’t seen for years.

What is it about girlfriends that is so special?

Is there actual science behind the experience of female friendship?

And how can you find and maintain real friends?

Join me, Dr Julie, as we talk about the power of female friendship and how you can invite that into your own life.

Click to listen now!

 
 

Full Episode Transcript

Hi, and welcome to my CBT podcast. This is Dr. Julie. I'm a doctor of psychology and a licensed clinical social worker specializing in cognitive behavioral therapy. I'm here to help you bring the power of CBT into your own life. So thanks for being with me. I wanted to share a quick review on a listener from Apple podcast. I really appreciate you guys taking time and giving me a review. So Stevie said, I I ran across Dr. Julie about a month ago. She definitely opened up my eyes to various ways to improve myself, took her advice and got the Mind Over Mood book. I just started working through the book. I have come to the realization that there isn't a quick fix. It is a journey. Thank you, Dr. Julie. So thank you again. I appreciate you taking the time to do that. And again, you guys can subscribe to my CBT podcast. So you never miss an episode. And if you take the time to a review, I'll share it and I really appreciate that. So today I'm doing something a little different because I'm going to actually share an old podcast, but I'm going to tell you why.

So back in August of this past year, I had the privilege, the honor, the phenomenal weekend that I reunited with 12 of my friends from high school. And this all happened because, sadly enough, one of the women in our group had passed away. And because of that, we all came back together. Her name was Dierdra, and we have a text going called We Love Dierdra, and it brought all of us together. And my good friend Sue reached out to all of us, and we started talking, and we were like, We have to get together. So I graduated high school 42 years ago. I've been in touch with a couple of these women, but most of them, I see a little bit on Facebook, but I have not been in touch with them. And to be honest, I was really involved in a youth group, and I spent more time with that group of people than my friends from high school. So I was so honored they invited me. But I got to tell you, the weekend was like beyond any of our wildest dreams. We kept saying it's like the big chill. It's an old movie, for those of you that know that, where people come back together and just sharing and being authentic and raw in some of our conversations and just connecting was just incredible.

I was really looking forward to it, but again, it was way more than any of us experienced. We rented a big house together. I told my husband, I can't even begin to explain to you what this weekend meant because it was just so deep and wonderful, and we all started talking about when we're going to do it again. And I felt really fortunate because I've heard about other women talking about how they have these group of friends, and they've gotten together, and they have these really intimate conversations. And I have close friends, but this was on another level. And I thought, wow, I actually got to experience that in my life. And I'm forever grateful. And we all felt the same way. All felt the same way. So we came together, of course, to honor our friend Dirdra, who passed. But reconnecting, my friend Sue, I mentioned, she was my first friend in my life. That I remember. And a lot of just wonderful things about knowing our parents. And I share with you guys a lot that my parents divorced, my mom moved away. A lot of people Well, most of these women, other than Sue, nobody ever knew my mother because she was never in Buffalo.

And just having that in common was really special and just catching up over our lives and just loving each other and supporting each other. I'm I'm telling you, if you got girlfriends and you're not spending the time with them, please make the time. And so because of that experience that I had, I thought, I have a podcast called What is a Friend, back from June of 2020, the year I started my podcast, and I thought, I'm going to replay that. But I also wanted to share something else with you guys before we started listening to the podcast replayed. I found a study, which is a little older, but it still is completely true from May 2006, and it was a UCLA study on friendship among women. I just want to read a little bit to you. So I thought this is really cool. This is good stuff to know. And it can really, not that I even need an explanation, but really explains what happened the weekend I had with my girlfriend. So the landmark UCLA study suggested that friendships between women are biologically determined and special. They shape who we are and who are yet to be.

They soothe our tumultuous inner world, fill the emotional gaps in our marriage, and help us remember who we really are. By the way, they may do even more. Scientists now expect that hanging out with their friends can actually counteract the stomach delivering stress most of us experience on a daily basis. A landmark UCLA study suggests that women respond to stress with a cascade of brain chemicals that causes to make and maintain friendships with other women. It's a stunning find that has turned five decades of stress research, most of it on men upside down. They barely had any research on women. Surprise, surprise. Again, this is back in 2006, so I'm sure there's much more since then, They talked about that the researchers suspect that women have a larger behavioral repertoire than just fight or flight. In fact, Dr. Klein, who's one of the researchers, says that it seems that when the hormone oxytocin is released as part of the stress response in a woman, it buffers the fight or flight response and encourages her to tend to children and gather other women instead. When she actually engages in this tending or befriending, studies suggest the more oxytocin is released, which further counter stress and produces a calming effect.

The calming response does not occur in men, says Dr. Klein, because testosterone, which men produce in high levels when they're under stress, seems to reduce the effects of oxytocin. Estrogen sheds seems to enhance it. So I was saying, I like oxytocin overload this weekend with my girlfriends because it was just one over another. It was just like, some of these women, I just, again, a little bit high school, really didn't know about them, just connected. And it was interesting that we found out, too, we really didn't know what was going on each other's homes because we were just teenagers having fun, partying a little bit, doing some things here and there. It wasn't like, Oh, what's going on in your home? So as women, we were like, well, I didn't even know you were going through that or this was happening. And we had a lot of fun. We did hang out together, and it was just interesting to connect on that level again. And one more thing I just want to read from the study is that it does say that it may take some time for new studies to reveal all the ways that oxytocin encourages us to care for children and hang out with other women.

But the tend and befriend, that's what they call the tend and befriend notion, developed by doctors Klein and Taylor. So I want to give them credit, this is their research, may explain why women consistently outlive men. Study after study has found that social ties reduce our risk of disease by lowering blood pressure, heart rate, and cholesterol. There's no doubt, says Dr. Klein, that friends are helping us live longer. In another study, researchers found that people who had no friends increased their risk of death over a six-month period. In another study, those who had the most friends over a nine-year period cut their risk of death by more than 60 %. So super interesting. And they also said, One last thing is that every time we get overly busy with work and family, the first thing we do is let go of friendships with other women. And we push them right back to the burner. This is really a mistake. Women are such a source of strength to each other. We nurture one another, and we need to have unpressured space in which we can do this special talk that women do when they're with other women.

It's very healing experience. So I just want to say that again, we need to have unpressured space in which we can do this special talk that women do when they're with other women. It's very healing experience. It's very healing experience. And it's so true, right? Women out there, that oxytocin is flowing. We could talk for hours and hours. We don't have to fix any problems. We just want to be heard and connect and laugh. And there's so much that's unsaid because we just understand. We're very fortunate in this way. And that's why friendship is so important. And that's what I'm going to talk about in the podcast you're going to listen to that I'm rereleasing. And I hope you'll take heat to it that if you already have that group of girlfriends, make an effort to do so. When I was also... So I went back to Buffalo, if I didn't mention it, get together with everybody. That's where I'm from, Buffalo, New York. And My other best friend, Lynnie, I was hanging out with, and we got together with some other people. And she said to some of the friends we were with, she's like, Julie's just so good.

It's just bringing everybody together. And I was like, Yeah, because it's so important. I appreciate that compliment, but that's been true with my family, with my friends. It does take effort. I understand what the research was saying about you can put things on a back burn. Like, I don't feel like it. I'm tired. My kids, my husband, my wife, whoever you're with, my partner, that There's always something you could be doing, and you got to make that time. And to this day, I am the one that's reaching out and saying, Come on, girls, let's get together. Pick a date, pick a date. As long as I don't hear back. I don't take it personal. I know my friends love me. I love them, and I just keep pushing until we find time. And then we're always happy when we get together. So just getting together for dinner. It only has to be a couple of hours. Taking a walk. My good friend Denise, I walk with her. Hopefully once a week we get together and we just talk and talk and we never have enough time to talk. And then we set up another time because we just love hanging out together.

So it's really important. And if you don't have that, see if you can find her a way to create that. Finding a woman's group, finding a group with women that maybe they're doing an activity you like is a good way to start. Building up friendship is so important. And as women, we tend to outlive men. And they talk about in the research, too, that women with friends tend to deal with the loss and grief when their partner dies because we have that connection in those friendships where men don't tend to have that. So I could keep talking about this in my weekend, and it was just super, like I said, super special. And we're going to plan another time to get together. And we were all beyond grateful and felt so full and loved and connected. It's something I will take with me the rest of my life that weekend. So for all my friends that are listening, I love you. Thank you for being there for me. Your friendship is so important, each and every one of you. And I will continue to bother you and bother you and get together for the rest of my days because it serves me and it serves you, and I can use as much oxytocin as possible! Enjoy my podcast on what is a friend.

So social support and friendship is so important, especially in times that we're going through now, because it's really easy to feel isolated. Anyways, a lot of people are lonely out there. A lot of people don't have a lot of connections. And when we're going through all this turmoil, you can feel even more isolated if you don't have a good social support and feel like you have people to reach out to. I just wanted to share a couple of things about friendship and support and just how our world is in general. Since 1985, it said that the number of people who have no one to talk to has doubled, and the lack of social contacts and support, despite all of the technological advances over the past decades, is on the downside.

And having huge transformations that have taken place in our society. So despite that we have email and mobile phones, people today have fewer meaningful social contacts than they had in the past. I totally get that. And it is true because people don't call each other as much. When I grew up, all I had was the phone. I would literally spend hours talking to my friends. I remember just falling asleep talking on the phone so late at night. That's all we had or we got together and we hung out. Now it's It's text, it's email. People get upset if someone doesn't text them back immediately. What happened? Are they mad at me? Is the tone right? We're having to guess what our relationships are with each other because we're not hearing each other's voices. Based on those assumptions, Relationships get affected, and we don't feel as connected. The other negative part, I think, with text and email is people fight through this. I've had people in my office where I'm like, What are you doing? They're trying to work on a relationship through text, and they're fighting with each other. It just goes on and on.

We've gotten too dependent on not having that personal connection and actually seeing each other and relying on all this technology that I think has really gotten in the way of having good social support and developing really good friendships. So that's something that's really important. Now, I know, just to add, with COVID-19, we haven't been able to get together like we would like to. But I think at least we have video chats. That makes a big difference being able to see each other when we talk and being able to social distance. I know a lot of people have gotten together in parks or in their front yard and kept six feet from each other so they could see each other because being connected to each other is just part of our DNA. It's not just an extra in our life. It's not just something we like. It is part of us. We are programmed to be connected to each other. We're not supposed to be alone and isolated. There's way too many of us in this world that we're supposed to just go it alone. I think that's another big stress I know it's been for me dealing with staying home, that even though I have people in my house, thank goodness, my family that I love, but I miss my friends and getting together and my coworkers that I haven't seen in the office.

I miss everybody and not being able to just, Hey, let's get together and go have a bite to eat, or, Hey, let's go shopping. It's like, Oh, yeah, we can't do that. It's not open or it's not safe. It's really effective, and we have to make extra effort to have connection with each other regarding our friendships and feeling supported, which is really important. Social support cuts off the dysfunctional cycle of stress, which produces physiological responses such as increased heart rate and breathing and blood pressure. Just having another person nearby will reduce stress when people perform difficult tasks stress. It also takes a load off of you when you need help in doing some of your tasks of your day, certainly as a stress reducer. Just having people around you when you're doing things, when you're working at the office or whatever environment you're in, just having people around can definitely reduce your stress. Spending time with a good supportive friend will also calm us and lift up our moods. We feel better when we walk and talk through things with the trusted friend. When we hear ourselves talk, we can often get to the root of what's really bothering us without a listener having to say a word, the listener, a friend, a coworker, whoever that might be in your life.

Having social support also validates us. We don't feel so alone when there's a trusted friend nearby to say some of the same things that have happened to them. For them, just say, I understand what you're going through and just feeling that empathy from somebody. They also help us feel better about ourselves. Good friends make us feel good, and we feel that we're a part of a larger whole. Like I was saying earlier, that we're not supposed to go this alone. When we have a good supportive social network, we can face life's everyday problems with the feeling that we have the backing of others who really care about us. It really has a lot of physical benefits, too. People that have social connections bounce back more quickly from surgery and illnesses and those without support. There's so much that we can get from being connected, and that's why it's important to sit there and think about, who do I have in my life? Do I have enough support? Am I reaching out? Am I being vulnerable? Am I really sharing who I am with my friends? Because that's what we all really want, to have a real connection, is to be vulnerable and really share personal things with each other.

It really makes a difference. So you want to think, what are the characteristics of a good friendship for me and who is likely to become my friend? And what people do I want in my life? So it's not just having a person with you, but it's having a person there that you like and you want to be with and you want to get to know better. And we all know we all have acquaintances, which is totally fine. But it's important that we have a core amount of friends. I found this to be true for myself in my 50s, and that the older I've got and the smaller my group of friends are because I'm more particular. I think I've just become more emotionally healthy over the years. I want emotional, healthy because I'm people in my life. When I was a teenager, I had tons and tons of friends, which was great. Some were close, some were just fun to go out with and have a good time, and some were just school friends. Maybe I studied with them. I had a whole different range of friends, and that was all great and met all my needs.

But as I've gotten older and also don't have much time to hang out with people because I have my family and I'm working, I'm really mindful and purposeful about who I want to spend my time with and be close to and share with. Those friendships I have are really important to me and are really close, and I can really depend on them because I put the time and effort into it. You want to think about, who do I want in my life? Again, it's not just to have someone fill up that space or someone to go shopping with, but who do I really want to spend my time with that I can count on and really be myself. So some of the things to think about, how close is somebody physically to me? Can I see them often? Is it easy? I have friends up in Los Angeles. I live in Orange County in California, and sadly enough, we don't see each It's ridiculous when I think about it because we're not that far from each other. But someone being close by. My friend lives down the street. One of my best friends used to live next door to me.

She's still close by, but it was, oh my God, when she was next door, it just run back and forth. Their dogs would go back to each other's houses. It was great. People at least being close by enough for you to see them often is really important. How often you see them has a great effect on how close that you're going to be. Those people that you see more often will likely become a good friend. Having common interests with someone, obviously important. If you're really struggling to develop some friendships, the best place is to join a group because you already have something in common based on whatever is in that group. Just to go up to someone and start up a conversation, it's a little hard because you don't know the person, you don't know what their interests are. But if you join, say, a class where you learn like line dancing, or you like to go on hikes, there's groups for that. We already have something in common. That's a really great way to get engaged and to start conversations with people. As I said just a few minutes ago, I want to address it one more time.

It's just what we call self-disclosure. That is past an acquaintanceship to a friendship when you start to talk about yourself and share your life. It has to be mutual and balanced between the two people for a friendship to really start. You start off with just some minimal information, some things, and then it gets closer and closer. When you feel comfortable enough to take that leap of faith and share something more personal or maybe a struggle that you're going through for two people to start to really connect and that you want that friendship to be the same coming back to you. A healthy friendship has a sense of equality between the two people and that you disclose personal information, and you expect the other person to reveal something personal as well. We don't want to just be the person sharing, sharing, and that person shares nothing back to you. I've met people like that that I feel like I'm sharing, and I actually know I really never got to know them very well because they just weren't willing to share with me. That's okay. You just have to move on. Then one of the last things just to add here is that intimacy So once you start self disclosing and the person gives back in the same way, you really establish a friendship.

It's like the final variable is the ability for two people to establish that appropriate level of intimacy between the two of them. It involves emotional expression and that support of the other person, that we accept the other person without placing value on him or her. A friendship with intimacy also includes trust and loyalty. I think those are the things that we're all really looking for out in the world. An intimate friendship is one in which we can feel that we can be ourselves and we'll be valued and accepted just for who we are. It makes us feel alive and warm and safe. A good friendship depends less on who the other person is than on how they make us feel. So let me just repeat that. A good friendship depends less on who the other person is than how they make us feel. So what I mean about that is how that person makes us feel is really the most important thing. That we feel important and loved, and that we know that person trusts us and that they care about us. And that makes a huge change in our lives, especially if we don't have that right now.

Those are some things to touch on. I also want to share a little bit about how men and women are different in their friendships because we are different, and that's okay. It's about us connecting and what works best for us. As women, we all know, we could talk for hours. We don't have to solve the problems, and we come home, and we're just loving life and just had the best time in the whole world. We actually have our hormones going when we're talking to each other that just make us feel warm and secure and connected. You come home and your husband, Oh, how did things go? Oh, it was great. Did you just figure out what to do about your problem? No. But I had a great time. Just talk, talked and felt connected, and that was great. Men are more fixers. You give them a problem, they're like, This is what you need to do. Just to understand for women, that's why we can talk and talk, and we don't need to fix anything. Sometimes we might, but we don't have to. So women tend to express their intimacy more emotionally, and they share information about themselves.

They talk more about feelings. They try to understand their relationships, their careers, their health, their state of mind. We're more interested in sharing and disclosing our feelings rather than the problem solving, as I mentioned. We want to process our feelings and talking and listening and feeling validated by our friends. So men, on the other hand, share their affection for their friends using what they call covert intimacy. So rather than focusing on processing feelings, men share their intimacy by helping each other or problem solving. They emphasize on doing rather than being. They talk more about topics outside of the personal realm. They talk more about cars, computer games, politics, finance, and their expression of affection often takes in the form of razzing each other, which is understood by men to be a form of bonding. Sometimes I think as women, we're like, You need to share more with your guy friends. Are you telling them how you're feeling, what you're going through? And they just look at us like, Are you out of your mind? No, we're good. We're connected. Leave me alone. So whatever is important to you and what makes you feel connected to someone is important.

I'm giving you some information, give you a little bit of insight of maybe the differences with the sexes, what's important to look for in a friendship. And not everybody's the same. There's some men that are super emotional, and there's some women that aren't. So the point is, what do you need in your life? Do you have enough social support? And if you don't, where can you start developing that and to really feel connected and realize how important it is. I hope that this is something that you'll take the time to start developing because it can really make a world of difference. I'm going to share a couple of ideas on how you can make friends if you're trying to figure out what the best way to go about this is, if this is new to you. There's a handful of things you can do. If you're not in school or working for a large company with that built-in social structure and lots of opportunities to meet to people, making friends can be challenging. I wanted to share that. I do have a lot of clients that come in and say, I don't know if it's just me, but I'm having a hard time making friends.

I found that to be true. When I moved to California in 1982 from Buffalo, New York, I had a hard time making friends until I started working and developing that friendship. But it was just harder. I don't know if it was where I was living or, and obviously, our environment. I talk about the cognitive behavioral therapy or environment is a major factor in your life, and your friendships are a part of that. It was hard leaving my hometown, and it took a while to make friends. It's not always an easy thing. If you are having a hard time, I don't want you to think there's something wrong with you, but it is hard to really develop friendships, and especially if you're not in that environment, like with work or school, that you're constantly meeting people. So that's a real thing. I went through that. It took me a long time to really create the friends I have out here in California now. So one thing is joining a gym. I know you're not going to make friends working out, but I've actually made friends at my gym, which I never even planned to, but it was because I ended up taking classes.

I used to do spin class, and I have friends now that I'm in touch with. We go out, we do things like good friends that I never even thought would develop. So if you go to the same class on the same day at the same time, you're going to likely have the same people, and people start talking to each other. Especially in a class, there's a lot of support and like, go for it and good for you and all that stuff that you can start developing friendships. That's really one place that you can go. Also, if you're taking martial arts classes or go to aerobic studio, those are all places you can start seeing. Again, it's that common interest that I talked about, like joining a group. This is a big one and a big commitment, but getting a pet, especially a dog. As I'm doing this podcast, my beautiful Paisley is taking a nap next to me here. I just rescued her about three weeks ago, and the last time we had a dog in our home was two years, and really missed having a pet. I'm so fortunate that we just found another wonderful pug, and we just love her so much.

But we've always made friends when we've had dogs. We walk the I just met a lady the other day. We were talking because our dogs were playing with each other, going to the dog park. It's a connection, right? And they'll just come up to you and start talking, and you can really develop some good friends. So getting a pet and going on a walk is something. But again, it's a huge responsibility, so you definitely need to want to have the dog as well. Another great thing is obviously volunteering, getting involved in some charitable group. Right now, with everything going on in the world and all the protests, there's tons of phenomenal information out there how you can get involved and you can volunteer and support different groups. So now is really a great time to do that. People are really embracing each other because we want to support each other and what's going on, and that this is a great time to get involved. As I mentioned a little earlier, getting involved in a hobby or a pastime, biking, music, the hiking. Then after you start getting involved, enjoying that hobby, you can find a group and have that interest into your life.

Take a look at people you already know. Friends are people with whom you share that proximity and frequency of contacts that you come in conversations that you have often. Make that effort to say, Hey, let's go and get a bite to eat, or let's go out for a cup of coffee, or I'm going to go volunteer here and you want to come with me. So making more of an effort with the friends we already have. The next one, which I'm going to share a story with you, is about tracking down old friends. Shouts out to my girlfriend, Lauryn, back in New Jersey. We were best friends in high school, and we lost touch. She graduated high high school a year early, which was fabulous, and went off to college, and we'd see each other. But by the time the year came that I graduated high school, I came to California. So nothing bad happened. We just lost touch over all these years. And sadly enough, it's been 25, which is crazy to think about. And recently, she had seen some of my stuff on Facebook with Cognitive Therapy and was wanting to shout out and just give me some kudos and asking, let's find a time to reconnect.

And we had a Zoom meeting and talked for an hour and a half, and it was a gift, a gift that she tracked me down and that we reconnected. And it was like old times, like no time ever passed. So there's really great friends that are probably out there that we've just lost touch, and they would love to hear from you. And put it out there. You know what? If they don't want to reconnect, nothing lost, nothing gained. But maybe you'll have that same experience I had of how happy I was that we connected and to be reminded why she was my best friend. We're going to keep in touch and We'll hopefully see each other soon, as soon as we can. Another way of making friends is ask questions. If you don't know what to say when you meet someone new, which I know is tough, ask them questions about themselves. Believe it or not, people like to talk about themselves. If you're someone that doesn't like to talk about yourself, you might think no one else does, but most people do. My first advice, usually when people are talking about, say, social anxiety, which was my last podcast, is to ask someone questions about themselves.

What are they like? Have they traveled? What do they do? And then that will keep the conversation going, and then you can add in. People do love the attention they receive from others. Conversations flow easier when other people feel validated. Something else you can do is ask them for a favor, which I know sounds a little odd, but if you're trying to make friends, maybe ask someone to do you a favor. Something small. Can you take me here? I need a ride to pick up my car in the shop, something like that. They're more likely to feel friendly towards you after they have done you a favor because people like to give, and then they may be more open to receive in that way. The last one I just want to share is just to smile. It might sound simple, but it's a way of approachable cues. My kids tease me when we take our dog out for a walk and I walk by someone, Why say hello? And not everyone says hello. They're like, Why are you saying hello to everybody? I'm like, We need to be more friendly in this world, right? We need to connect with people.

Just a nice smile. How are you doing? The funny thing is we were walking the other day and I'm saying hello and the one person didn't respond. Then a block up, there must have been three or four people that said hello to me first. I just laughed with my daughter because I'm like, See, people like connecting. It's really important. Again, I think we need it more than ever in the world today. Reach out to those people that are already in your life. Reach out to those people that maybe you don't take the extra time and say, Let's get together. Think about any old friends that you miss that you'd love to have in your life. Then think about new ways to meet new people. If you're like, I just need some new people in my life, or the people I'm with really aren't that healthy, and I'm getting healthier, and I want to have a better environment. Because again, with the CBT, your environment is a huge factor, and that's who you're surrounded with. Take that leap of faith and put yourself out there, and you will meet some new people and connect. Again, you never know where you're going to meet people.

You never know where it's going to happen. Like I mentioned, my neighbor who moved, but she's in the same area, which is good, but she moved next door to me, and she's one of my best friends. I'm like, How lucky was that? It just happened. So people want to connect. I meet so many people that are lonely and don't have someone to hang out with, and they just want to have that in their life. So don't question too much. Be careful. All of your hot thoughts, right? They're your thoughts that are 100% true. Making assumptions that people won't want to hang out with you, or you won't find somebody with the same interests, or things have to be perfectly aligned. You just have to find one thing in common, and that's enough. To feel that you're worthy enough and that you can be a good friend and be the friend that you want from someone else. Then you will attract that in your life. Going back to my CBT, your environment's important, which is your social support and friendships, the way you're thinking about your friendships and what's important to you and what are your values in other people.

That will affect you feeling better, right? And then your behavior will be to be probably more outgoing and taking more chances. And physically, as I mentioned earlier, it's just good for our health to have good support in our lives, good for our immune system, good for all of those things that make us feel calmer, more relaxed, and more whole. So I want to read one last thing before we finish up for today. So I found this great post on Facebook I just love, and it says, One day, all of us will get separated from each other. We'll miss our conversations. Days, months, and years will pass until we rarely see each other. One day, our children will see our photos and ask, Who are these people? And we will smile with invisible tears and say, It was with them that I had the best days of my life. And I just smiled when I read that because that is so true, because I just had so much fun with my friends growing up, and it's just the greatest memories, and most of them, I'm still friends with them today. And if you're listening. I love all of you.

So thanks for being with me. Again, you guys know you can find me on Instagram under My CBT Podcast; Dr. Julie Osborn on Facebook, Dr. Julia Osborn on my YouTube channel. I got a couple of videos there you can watch where I've had some interviews.

You can also go to my website at mycognitivebehaviouraltherapy.com. There's videos, there's newsletters, my story, you can buy merchandise that has my mantra for my website on it or my podcast, I want to say actually, which is make decisions based on what's best for you, not how you feel.