Episode #182

Dr David Burns’ Relationship Journal & CBT

Many of us don’t learn how to communicate effectively when we’re growing up. It can be very easy for a conversation to go sideways if you don’t have the tools to build a relationship in a healthy way.

How can you react or respond productively in a conversation?

How can you build strong, solid relationships?

In this episode, I’ll share Dr David Burns’ brilliant tool - his Relationship Journal - to learn great communication tools and grow your relationships in a healthy way.

Click here to listen now!

Full Episode Transcript

Hi, and welcome to My CBT Podcast. This is Dr. Julie. I'm a Doctor of Psychology and a licensed clinical social worker specializing in cognitive-behavioral therapy. I'm here to help you bring the power of CBT into your own life.

I appreciate you being here with me, and we're going to learn some good stuff today.

I'm glad I'm reaching people everywhere and in all areas of life and pursuits and are finding CBT helpful and understandable listening to my CBT podcast. That is definitely my goal here.

I want you guys to learn it so you can use it like me. I learned it and I use it all the time. So today I'm going to teach you a new tool, and this I want to give credit where credit is due to Dr. David Burns. He always says you can teach my stuff, but you need to give me credit. And that's what I'm doing.

So this is a tool from Dr. David Burns and it's called the Relationship Journal. It's a really interesting exercise and I find it really helpful to be able to improve your communication, for you to own your part in the possible conflict or poor communication skills. A lot of us have them. Most of us were not taught how to communicate correctly. Until we were forced to in some situation in our life, or maybe when we realized, like, I'm not communicating in a way that's getting across what I really want to express, how I'm feeling, what I'm thinking.

And, you know, obviously when we're communicating, we get caught up in the conversation really quickly, and things can go sour very quickly. And using the relationship journal after an unproductive conversation can help you see when things really change. And there's lots of different CB tools that are going to fall into this. So if you're at home and you got a piece of paper and a pen or pencil, I would take it out. And obviously you can always re-listen to this, and you can always look up Dr. David Burns' tools in his many books.

And looking up the last one, Feeling Great, covers most of his tools. It's called the Relationship Journal. So the first step is you're gonna write down exactly what the other person said, and you wanna be brief. So again, it's important that you write down exactly what they said, not summarizing it, 'cause the words are really important regarding this exercise. And then step 2, you wanna write down what you said.

So you wanna write down exactly what you said next. And again, be brief. What was your response? What were your exact words?

So once you get that down, you might start seeing, you know, how you reacted possibly negatively. Maybe you were reactive in this communication exchange. And then step 3, we're going to look at a tool that Dr. Burns calls the EAR, E-A-R. Checklist. Okay, so it stands for empathy, assertiveness, and respect. So good communication is when you acknowledge the other person's feelings, so that's empathy.

Second, you express your feelings openly and directly, that's being assertive. And number 3 is your attitude is respectful and caring. And that's respect. E-A-R. Empathy, assertiveness, respect.

That's your checklist. So that's good communication. Bad communication is number 1, you ignore the other person's feelings. Number 2, you fail to express your feelings openly. And number 3, your attitude is not respectful or caring.

So we obviously want the good communication, right? So number 3, you're going to ask yourself, Was your response an example of good or bad communication? And then ask yourself why. So we're writing this down, right, in this relationship journal. And you can use this checklist I just went over with you to analyze what you wrote down in step 2, which is looking at what you wrote down exactly— not what you wrote, yeah, what you wrote down, but what you said, I'm sorry, exactly to the person that you had this communication with.

Did I use good communication? Was I empathetic, assertive, and respectful? Did I acknowledge their feelings? Did I express my feelings openly and directly? And was your attitude respectful and caring?

Or did you have bad communication where you ignored the other person's feelings, you failed to express your feelings openly, and your attitude was not respectful or caring? So this is going to get you to start thinking about What went wrong and owning your part, right? That's important to understand.

And step 4, what are the consequences? Did your response in step 2, which was your response to the person, make the problem better or worse and why? And start writing this out.

So then you're going to start, yes, you know what, I maybe used, you know, you towards the other person. I was blaming. Maybe I was defensive. I didn't acknowledge their feelings. I didn't really care what they said.

I just want them to hear me. I want it to be right. I wanted them to get me without me getting them. You know, this is lots of things that happen in poor communication. So again, what are the consequences?

Did your response in step 2 Your response to them make the problem better or worse? And why did it make it better or worse?

And then the last step in the relationship journal is the revised version. So you want to revise what you wrote down in step 2, which is your response, right? And you can use the 5 Secrets of Effective Communication, which I have a podcast on you guys can listen to.

If your revised response is still ineffective, you want to try again. So let me go over some other things regarding the BAD Communication Checklist, and then I will review for you guys the 5 Secrets of Effective Communication. And again, you can go back and listen to that podcast as well. So the good thing is there's lots of different ways to communicate in a healthy way. And because there's lots of different ways, which means there's lots of different tools, I want you guys to figure out what works best for you.

Well, what are you most comfortable with? But being able to use a relationship journal can help you get more specific because what happens, I think often is that people have arguments and they generalize a lot of things and they don't own where they could have done better because maybe they're just still pissed off at what the other person said or what they didn't say or how they reacted. Right. And yeah, people are, you know, aggressive towards us sometimes. People are disrespectful.

I mean, all of that's true. But the point is that you always want to remember the only thing, the only thing you have control over is you. You can't control people, places, or things, right? So even though I don't like how that person spoke or their perception of what's going on or their perspective of what's going on, how am I handling it? How am I communicating?

How am I responding? Because I want to have good communication and use the good tools with the EAR, meaning being empathetic, assertive, and respectful, so that I feel good about how I respond. That's really powerful. Even at the end of the conversation, if you respond well and they don't, you're still going to feel better going, you know, I handled it well. I respected myself.

I respected them. And I handled it in a way that makes me feel good, even if I have to walk away and we didn't resolve the issue. Hopefully we can resolve or make things better, but you know, what's the worst-case scenario? We didn't resolve it, but I still feel good about how I handled it, right? That's important.

So let me first talk again about the bad communication checklist Dr. Burns shares with us. Um, to help you change your response. So we talk about, you know, once you review what you wrote down in step 2, and then you want to revise your communication style, right? How many of the errors can you spot? So I'm going to read a bunch off to you.

So again, if you want to take notes, or again, you can always go back and listen. You can always look up these things that Dr. Burns has created on the internet as well. Communication errors. So the first one is truth. So this area is when you insist you're right and the other person is wrong.

Number 2 is blame. You imply the problem is the other person's fault. Number 3 is defensiveness. You argue and refuse to admit any imperfection. Number 4 is martyrdom.

You imply that you're an innocent victim. Number 5 is a put-down. You imply that the other person is a loser. Number 6 is labeling. You call the other person a jerk, a loser, or worse.

Number 7 is sarcasm. Your tone of voice is belittling or patronizing. Number 8 is a counterattack. You respond to criticism with criticism. Number 9 is scapegoating.

You imply the other person is defective or has a problem. Number 10 is diversion. You change the subject or list past grievances.

11 is self-blame. You act as if you're awful and terrible. 12 is helplessness. You claim you've tried everything and nothing works. Number 13 is demandiness.

You complain when people aren't as you expect. Number 14 is denial. You imply that you don't feel angry, sad, or upset when you do. Number 15 is helping. Instead of listening, you give advice or you help.

Number 16 is problem solving. You try to solve the problem and ignore feelings. Number 17 is mind reading. You expect others to know how you feel without telling them. And number 18 is passive aggression.

You say nothing, you pout, or you slam doors. So these are 18 different bad communication errors. And as you're looking at your response to the person, you want to be able to go over and say, are these any of the errors that I had?

So I know there's a lot here, so that's why it's good you can just re-listen to this podcast, or like I said, writing them down. But I'll review them one more time without giving all the examples. But truth, where you think, you know, you're right, or you insist you're right. Blaming, being defensive, martyrdom, Putting down, labeling, being sarcastic, having a counterattack, scapegoating, diverting the conversation, self-blame, hopelessness, demandingness, denial, helping instead of listening, problem-solving, mind-reading, and passive aggression. So there's a lot, but these are good things to think about and go, yeah, you know, was this part of my response to that person?

And if it is, and I can be very specific here, then I can change it and I can go back and I can say, you know, I'd like to talk some more. I like to share what I was thinking in a healthier way. I know that I didn't come across in the way that I wanted to, and it really affected the outcome. And I want to see if we can talk about this some more. That might be a way to approach somebody, right?

So you want to have the good communication, you want to avoid the bad communication. And, you know, you can also, I think, have more empathy when you go over this list to say, you know, I do this sometimes, and sometimes this person in my life does it as well. You know, they insist that they're always right and I'm wrong. You know, they blame me for the problem. They get defensive.

They put me down. They call me names. They get sarcastic. You know, their tone is really like, say, patronizing, which is really annoying, right? They give you a counterattack instead of responding to what your issue is with them.

You know, they scapegoat you. All these things I'm talking about. Or then they get to like, oh, self-blame. I'm so awful. I'm so terrible.

You know, I've tried everything. Nothing works. That's the helplessness, you know. You're in, you know, they're in denial. You know, they don't respond at all.

They try to just fix it instead of listening. They assume what's going to happen by mind reading. You know, they expect you to know how they feel. So again, looking at this in reverse, if these things irritate you and others, then you're also irritating others, right? So if these things bother— there's no way other people do this and you don't.

And none of us are perfect. None of us are perfect. Even though I know this stuff very, very well, I definitely don't always respond perfectly, right? And it's not even— I'm not even looking to be perfect. I want to be a good communicator, which really means to me is using the tools but also recognizing when I'm not using the tools, or am I using the tools as well as I could?

And for me to be able to own that and say, hey, can I, can I have a redo? Can we try this one more time? Because it's really important to me. You're really important to me, and I think we get to a place of better understanding. So there's, there's so much good energy that can go into this, you know, but you have to be open and willing.

I'm going to make an assumption, which is probably not always a good thing, but the fact that you're listening to my podcast, my assumption is that you want to learn the tools You want to be the best you can be, which includes being a good communicator. When you can communicate really well, it just helps the whole conversation, the whole conversation. And maybe, you know, if the person started using any of these, you know, bad communication towards you, you know, you can identify that and be able to, in an empathetic way, say, you know, I hear what you're saying. I understand this might be a hard conversation to have, but blaming me or only blaming yourself is not going to get us anywhere. Being defensive, maybe you're not ready to have this conversation, right?

I've done this myself and I hear this from you. Maybe we need to take a minute, you know, let's both own our part and be able to have some good resolution because that's what our intent is. So, you know, you can, again, if I hope you're following me here, that you can really turn things around in a healthy way by understanding what's even going on. Why are we having a difficult conversation? Why aren't you hearing me?

Why aren't I hearing you? Why are you defensive? Why am I defensive? Right? What's going on really, you know, underneath my behaviors?

You know, do I have bad communication because I'm scared to own it? I'm scared to be vulnerable. I'm afraid of how you'll respond if I share the truth, if you really, you know, see my vulnerabilities. You know, what does that look like? What if I don't— if you do see that, then what's the outcome going to be, right?

So all of those things can help you understand yourself better. And, you know, as I'm sharing this, I'm hoping you're hearing me do a thought record right now, right? Because those are all of my hot thoughts, right? That if the person really knows me, they're going to use that against me. You know, I'm going to have to be defensive.

I can't be open and honest. I can't have good communication because that makes me more vulnerable to get hurt. These could be all of your hot thoughts that are getting in the way of even using the tools to have good, effective communication. So I'm hoping that makes sense. And you want to really figure out, you know, what the issue is.

Now I'll give you an example is, um, I've worked with some clients that, um, get frustrated with their partner regarding finances. That's super common, right? Super common in relationships. And yes, I'm upset that my partner's spending more money than I want them to, right? That's legit.

But you know, if we really work and say, you know, what's really going on underneath that frustration, you know, could be that I don't think they respect me. I don't think they respect the money that I earn. I don't think they respect the bigger plan we have going forward on how we're going to budget things. Like, that's— there's the issue, right? The hot thought is they don't respect me, they don't respect the money I bring into this relationship, right?

Versus like, you're overspending, stop overspending, we can't afford it. Yes, that's an issue, but underneath— and so if you shared with somebody, you know, this is my thought, and you're able to do it by having the empathy, the assertiveness, and the respect, talking to that person about something that's really triggering you and, you know, is really important to you, you're going to get a better response from them. So that's where I'm saying there's all these different CBT tools that fall into communication. You know, maybe I need to do a thought record first to really understand what are my hot thoughts that are making me so upset about this situation that I want to go approach and have good communication with this person, right? And then that's where we come back to the 5 Secrets of Effective Communication.

Right, which is one of the things that Dr. Burns wrote on the revised version, right? That once you write down your revision for step 2, you can use the 5 Secrets of Effective Communication. And if it's still ineffective, you can try again. So what are the 5 Secrets of Effective Communication? So the first one— I'm just going to do a quick review because like I said, you guys can listen to a full podcast on this— is disarming.

Right, so that's where you find some truth and what the person is upset with you about, right, or maybe blaming you for or accusing you of. You're going to do thought empathy and feeling empathy. So thought empathy is you're going to repeat what they're saying to you, and feeling empathy is you're going to repeat back to them or share with them, you know, the feelings that you can see that they're having based on this thing that they're upset about. And then you're gonna inquire to make sure you understand and giving them a chance to share any extra information that maybe you didn't get or they wanted to add. And then you're gonna do your I feel statement.

So that's where you're gonna be able to share your thoughts and your feelings about the situation. Right? And then the last one is you're gonna stroke where you're gonna say, and I'm really glad we were able to talk this through and you're able to hear me out. So the 5 Secrets of Effective Communication are a game changer. You know, it allows you to acknowledge what the other person is saying.

That's a, that's huge. That's the disarming, right? That's a lot that falls under that respect, that I'm hearing what you're saying and I can find some truth in it. I can own some of it. And then I'm going to let you know I really heard what you said through what your words were and as well as your feelings.

I'm going to check in and make sure I understand all of it, and then I'm going to share how I'm feeling and thinking about the situation. And then I'm going to end it with the stroking that even if we end up agreeing to disagree, I still appreciate that we're able to talk about this. So it's really powerful. It's one of my favorite tools from Dr. Burns.

I have found it super helpful, and I'd love you guys to learn it and practice it. And that's the goal, is to learn it and to practice and practice and practice. And remember, I always tell people, even if you start a conversation and you kind of react and you're like, oh, this is not the way I want it to go, just stop and pause. You don't have to finish a bad conversation, right? You don't have to— like I tell people, you don't have to stay on the phone when someone's yelling at you, you're fighting.

You can just get off the phone. I don't know why people feel like they gotta finish it. Right? Because they're probably thinking, I'm gonna— I have to finish this. I'm gonna have the last word.

I gotta prove them right. We can always stop and pause, stop and pause, breathe and pause, right? And say, you know what, I'm really not communicating to you right now in a way that I want to, and this doesn't feel good. Let's just stop for a minute. I need to take a breath.

I'd like to start over. And then once you know these tools, you know, you can go back to, okay, let me do the disarming first. Right? Am I doing the bad communication? Am I doing the good communication?

Right? Am I— do I have empathy for this person right now? Am I expressing my feelings openly and directly so I'm being assertive? And is my attitude respectful and caring? Those are huge.

It's just 3 steps. And not that it's easy because I'm saying just, but it's not like you gotta remember 10 things here, right? Again, it's the EAR checklist, E-A-R, and it really can be a game changer when you are present, when you're aware and mindful of what you want to say, how you want to say it. These are ways for you to kind of check in like, yeah, I'm on track, I'm on track, this is how I want to be. And I really believe, and I've seen it in my own life and seeing clients and role-playing with them and that when they can get to that place of, you know, acknowledging the other person's feelings, expressing their feelings openly and directly, and having a good attitude by being respectful and caring, they can really see how that also affects the other person.

Because, you know, I always share with everybody that, you know, you know, it's like what came first, the chicken or the egg, right? We don't know. Everybody's responding off each other. So it's like, oh, you started— I mean, we'll get into that, right? Who started it?

But if I'm treating you with respect and I'm really empathetic and I'm caring and I'm showing that I want to understand why you're so upset with me and I want to figure out how we can fix it and I want to own my part in all of those things, that other person is just going to probably get a little more gentler with me as well because they're feeling respected and heard and cared for, right? And we all want to feel that. From the people in our lives. And when we don't, what happens? We go to the bad communication, right?

We get defensive, we start to blame, we start to be a martyr, right? All of those things. We start labeling the other person. So it all, you know, kind of a big circle. I hope you can see as I'm talking here that the way I treat other people is going to help, not guarantee, but it's going to help them to treat me better, which is also my goal, right?

But I have to do it first. I got to start. I can't expect other people to treat me the way I want to be treated if I'm not treating them that way. That's just not— that's not even logical, you guys. So am I treating others?

Am I communicating in a way that is going to hopefully have that other person talk to me that same way as well? And it is true, and you may have heard this before, but you know, if someone's yelling at you, and you can stay calm and grounded, they will eventually come back down too. What happens is, you know, one person starts screaming and then the other person starts screaming. We get louder and louder and louder and louder, and nobody's hearing each other. It's just— you're— it's like you could just go scream at the wall if you want to, because that's all you're going to get out of it, right?

That nobody's hearing each other because everybody's in their own heads, in their own space. Like, you're gonna hear what I'm saying because I'm pissed, and you're gonna hear, and I want you to hear me. But the reality is nobody's going to hear you because you've just shut out everybody once you start shouting at them. So if your communication is not working, if your relationships are suffering, this is a really good place to get started. What am I doing, right?

What am I doing? Going, you know, my mantra— I always like to throw this in here— is, you know, making decisions based on what's best for me, not how I feel. I feel like screaming. I feel like telling that person they suck. I feel like making sure they understand how they screwed up.

But that's a, that's a, you know, that feeling I have, that's not what's best for me, right? What's best for me, if this is a relationship I want in my life. If it's not a relationship you don't want, then just move on and you don't need to argue and tell them how, you know, they're losers and you hate them and all that stuff, right? Like, just move on. But if you want to have a communication with someone I believe you probably want some kind of relationship, even professionally, right?

Professionally, personally, whatever that looks like. What, what is best for me? That I own my part, that I learn the tools, that I become a good communicator to make my life better, to make my relationships better, for me to be the person I want to be. I can tell you, when I've lost my temper or I've just gone off, and I can think of some things in the past, I'm like 'Oh, that was ugly, Julie. That got you nowhere.

You look like an idiot. Nobody listened to you,' right? Maybe at the moment, in that moment, it felt good, but that was for a split second. And the amount of time it didn't feel good lasts way, way longer. And now I'm grateful that I have tools, because back then I didn't, on how to communicate in a way that I feel good about me and also allows other people to feel good about how I am treating them and being a good listener and caring.

And when I'm— and you know, we all have our moments. If I am really pissed about something, you guys, I take a timeout like I used to give my kids, and I go maybe go out and take a walk. I love walking my dog when I'm upset and just need some space. Just get out of the house. I might go up to one of, you know, my bedroom and just say, I need a moment.

You know, I find that space that, you know, I need to do some breathing, I need to relax, I need to maybe just take a nap, whatever it is to get myself in a good place and then say, okay, let's get back to the tools because that's what works for me. I'm going to practice what I preach and let's have a redo. And hopefully that person will be open to that when I come to them and say, I like to do it over. I don't like how I spoke to you. I know I can do better.

I hope you'll give me a chance. Can we talk? And then you can get going. So again, the relationship journal is a great place to start.

You want to— step 1, just to review with you guys real quick, is you want to write down exactly what the other person said. I do this a lot in counseling too, and people are telling about relationship issues You know, I always, you know, they say something and I say, well, how did they respond? And people usually have to take a minute. I think, you know, a lot of us just, oh my gosh, that's what happened, that's what they said, and just take it like verbatim. And, you know, a lot of times we're not expressing what the other person said exactly, but we're just sharing what we think we heard.

So that's why you want to take a minute to write down exactly what the other person said. Again, you want to be brief, you know, because we want to kind of be able to focus on, you know, what's that thing that maybe really triggered the conversation or triggered me so that I didn't react in the best way and I didn't communicate well. So step 2 is you're going to write down what you said and write down exactly what you said and be brief as well. Step 3 is going over, did I have good communication versus bad? What was your response as an example of good or bad communication?

Right? So really quick, again, the EAR checklist: empathy, assertiveness, respect.

And if you didn't have good communication, why not? What happened? And going over the checklist I went with you guys to analyze what you wrote down, you know, what were my bad communication errors? You know, the blame, the defensiveness, putting the person down, being in denial, you know, being passive-aggressive, whatever that might be. And you know, I read off 18, you might have 10.

We're not looking just— it doesn't have to be just one thing. It could be many things that you did. And then you want to write down what are the consequences. Did your response in step 2 make the problem better or worse? And why is that?

Right? Maybe this could be that, hey, I did have good communication, but the other person had the bad communication, and that's why we left the conversation not feeling good about things. So it's not just looking for the negative things. You may have done some positive as well. And then step 5 is your revised version.

Revise what you wrote down into how do you want to communicate. Use the 5 Secrets of Effective Communication. And if it's not good, just keep going over, keep going over until you get it to where you want it to be.

So other than my podcast on the 5 Secrets of Effective Communication, I also have an older podcast a few years ago called What Did You Say? And that is also on communication that a lot of clients have found really helpful, and also with couples. So, and I know I have other ones out there, I don't remember all the titles, but those would be two that I would focus on if you want to work on that. Also with The Five Secrets of Effective Communication, Dr. David Burns' other book called Feeling Good Together. Is a book that goes over the 5 Secrets of Effective Communication.

Really great book. And it has a lot of exercises in there as well. So lots of good stuff to learn. Lots of, you know, good things to have right in front of you. I also, one last thing before we finish up today, I just wanted to share that I tell my clients, you know, write the steps down.

If you write out exactly what to say, there's no problem in reading it to the person. You might say, hey, I wrote exactly what I wanna say. 'Cause I wanna do it right and I wanna make sure you hear me and I wanna make sure I do it in a way that I feel good about. I'm gonna read to you what I wrote and then we can continue to talk. That's great too.

You don't have to have all this memorized and go off top of your head because our emotions are strong, right? The goal is here to feel better by changing the way you think. 'Cause our emotions are strong, they can get away from us sometimes. And so having that footnote in front of you and be able to go, oh yes, I wanna do this, I wanna do this. So disarm and thought and feeling feeling empathy, all the things I want to do.

If I have it in front of me, it's going to keep me on track. The outcome is what's most important here, right? We want to have a good outcome. If you need to be in front of you until you feel more solid, or you do that all the way, all the time, you know, having it in front of you, writing it out, that is totally okay. So as always, I hope this was helpful, you guys.

Um, please, you know, share with me what you thought was good, if you have any questions. If you have any suggestions, I love hearing all of that. And please share this with anyone you might find helpful. This might be a podcast to share with the person you're struggling with your communication. So, you know, you can find me on my website at mycognitivebehavioraltherapy.com.

I have a lot of other good resources on my website as well, and some videos you might enjoy watching. You can find me on Instagram under My CBT Podcast and Dr. Julie Osborn on Facebook.

I also have a little— some videos, I should say, on my YouTube channel, which is just under Dr. Julie Osborn.

So again, please keep sharing your thoughts, your concerns, your questions. I love hearing from you.

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And as always, make decisions based on what's best for you, not how you feel.